I agree: being beaten isn’t a necessary “ingredient” (I can’t think of a better term, apologies) for rape.
So why make the distinction?
If someone was forced to have sex, they were raped. Why explain or catagorize further? It weakens the offense. It’s like saying “Yes, but…”.
If you and your boyfriend were going to the movies said “Gimme your money or I’ll beat the shit out of you.” you were robbed, not “date-robbed” and it’s robbery whether he actually hits you or not.
If you were beaten up while going to dinner and the theater, you were assaulted, not “date-assaulted”.
And if someone says “Have sex with me or I’ll take a crowbar to your head” and you give in, you’ve been raped, regardless of whether you were necking with the guy on Lover’s Lane or heading out to a public parking lot after work.
IMO, putting the word “date” before the offense makes it sound like a lesser category of the offense and it’s not.
I’m willing to bet that different people answer them differently. And that the difference will highlight the fact that people differ on what’s reasonable coercion to resist and what is coercion so unreasonable that the law should punish its application.
Yeah, I’m with Zabali, I don’t understand the point of all those completely irrelevant questions, either. Not a single one of them even comes close to reflecting anything resembling what happened to her, let alone any act of rape. But I’ll play your silly game, just for shits and giggles:
(A) (By a fiance) Have sex with me now, or I won’t marry you. I’d dump the prick.
(B) (By a voodoo practictioner) Have sex with me now, or I will put a voodoo curse on you. I’d laugh in his face.
(D) (By her husband’s employer) Have sex with me now, or I will fire your husband. I’d report his ass for sexual harrassment. There’s no ambiguity there, either.
(E) (By a potential employer) Have sex with me now, or I won’t hire you. I’d get up and walk out. I might report him, but since I couldn’t show an actual, tangible loss, I probably don’t have a case and really wouldn’t have any drive to pursue it. The guy’s an idiot – move on.
(F) (By a client who has discovered her embezzling money) Have sex with me now, or I’ll call the police and turn you in. Well I’d be screwed either way, then, wouldn’t I?
An adult female who’s just recieved an expensive gift, and meal, is told that now she has to “repay” the fellow that bought them for her.
A young adult female, who is sexually active without her overbearing violent parent’s consent is told “Have sex with me, or I’ll tell.”
An adult female, who’s emotionally/mentally vunerable, is told she needs to learn how to “trust” and that she can learn how to do this by having sex with the person she’s entrusted to help her get well. Fenris Respectfully, you’re sort of preaching to the choir. I’ve long since come to terms with the idea, that the media, and common person on the street refers to what happened to me as “date rape”. I know the court system stilll calls it “sexual assault” and treats it as such.
My point was that people differ – while you’re saying that none of my hypos rise to the level of the crime of rape, others have confidently asserted that at least some do. Even the voodoo curse hypo is considered as a possible rape by one poster above, if the woman believes in or practices voodoo.
There is a wide variety of visceral responses for people in answering the question of when does boorish persistance and ugly persuasion cross into the crime of rape.
While I agree that none of the cases are remotely relevant to what happened to the OP, I think the variety of responses they garner is absolutely relevant to highlighting how reasonable minds may differ when answering this question.
Hmm, somehow I missed the part where those who were insisting that, despite her having been 13, what happened was NOT “really rape” came back in and recanted their original ugliness.
Yeah, but the question is WHY DID YOU HANG AROUND FOR TWO HOURS OF THIS BS??? Every one here is going on and on about how you were only 13 but you were in a dating relationship with this guy. That implies some kind of social maturity. Even in the way back machine of the 60’s and 70’s 13 year old’s knew about sex. And it was generally frowned upon. It seems to me that you could have walked away at any time. You were in his parent’s back yard. Did you really think he was going to rape you or were you afraid he was going to dump you if you didn’t put out? Those are two very different questions.
PS most women don’t get raped because they want a guy to “stop bothering” them.
Nope. Sorry. Throw the gift in his face and offer to write him a check for your half of the meal. The old song “Take Back Your Mink” from the musical GUYS AND DOLLS addresses this quite nicely (well…except for the ending…but that aside ).
Probably not. Maybe. Depends on too many clarifications–is she able to leave home? Does she even live at home? Is he aware that her parent is violent? Even if the answers are “No”, “Yes” and “Yes”, I’d still say…“I dunno…depends.”
If you mean like a woman going to a doctor or a psychologist, yes. Absolutely.
If it’s just someone she thought of as a friend, probably not, although he’d be loathesome.
I’m glad we’re on the same page, but I’m confused…I thought you were arguing in favor of using the term “date-rape”!
PictsiePat I didn’t “hang around” for two hours. You’re trying to lay blame that isn’t there, by asking that question. Once I said “I’m not ready” then the responsiblity was on HIM to behave in an honorable manner. He failed to do so. I did my part, refusing his advances again and again. He wouldn’t relent.
I spent that time saying no, wriggling free from his arms, removing his hands from places I didn’t want them, walking back to his parent’s porch and again…saying “No”. He was bigger than I was, and as I’ve said very persistant in his advances, both emotionally/verbally and physically.
Once he started picking me up and carrying me to secluded spots in the yard, I felt that I would not succeed at leaving if I’d tried, and it didn’t even cross my concious mind, becuase I was so busy fending his emotional/verbal and physical advances off. He kept me so busy with “other things” that I couldn’t think straight enough to get away if I’d wanted to.
Go back and re-read what I said. I most definately indicated that I was not interested in sex, time and time again. You’re looking at it from an adult veiwpoint, and from outside. A 13 year old female child’s veiwpoint, who’s just had her trust shattered, and is being hounded and physically harassed is very different. Clear thinking and decisive action isn’t as easy or doable in that situation.
Fenris I was merely using the phrase that the medai uses to try to communicate somewhat effectively. That’s how it’s commonly called. You saw what gobear said at first. This is what I tried (and failed) to avoid. Even though you know, and I know, that rape is rape, others do not see it that way, and don’t veiw what’s called “date rape” as seriously as “rape”. I didn’t want to have to “duke it out” with those people who felt this way, but was not consistent enough, and thus incurred the momentary accusing finger point from gobear.
1 & 2 above are absolutely not rape. And 3 is only rape if it is done in a Dr/Patient relationship. Anybody that thinks the first statement is “rape-worthy” is in serious denial of their own responsibilties. Statement 2 above is not made by an “adult female”
I was thinking that the problem was Zabali changing her story because she didn’t want to look bad. That’s just me though.
I just have one question though. Didn’t this start out as her asking if people thought what happened to her was rape, and then when they said “no” she said “YES IT WAS!”
Please correct me if I’m mistaken about that part.
I cringed when I got home and looked at the thread again. I had a response open window and got “sidetracked” by work. Could I have possibly said more exactly the same thing you did? ::smack::
Now, go and read the links I posted in the OP. Although not the best illustrations that could be crafted, every one of those cases is rape of some form. Yeah, a woman should be strong enough to tell a man “No” when they say it’s “owed” yet this is a VERY common form of rape among college age people. The guy feels it’s justified because he spent money. Threats using blackmail, that cause fear of retribution (of any kind) unless sex is given are definately a form of coercion, and therefore rape. Ministers have been successfully prosecuted under the premise put forth in number 3, and I believe Kansas law is worded to include ministers.
So, think about those “grey areas” a little more carefully, please?
It started out as an incomplete anectdote in another thread. As I’ve said, giving details is very hard, and upsetting. I don’t think you’ve very much understanding of what a rape survivor is going through, Cisco. I’ve been “date raped” as it’s popularly labled, and raped by a stranger violently. The feelings of guilt, anger, hurt, blame, paranoia, are the same flavor, but more intense when coupled with the physical pain of my second rape. I’m able to state this after years of therapy to deal with it.
Do the rest of you see now, why I started this thread? There are some good examples in it of the kind of attitudes I’ve had to endure being inflicted on me over the years. They want to find something that the person who was raped did “wrong” so they can absolve the rapist. Hell, Cisco here even stooped to implying that I’m lying just to “make myself look good”. I won’t even bother to dignify those insinuations with an answer, but I will state that he’s now under the same classification as astro.
Here’s one more hypothetical: Person A initiates sexual activity. Person B believes (possibly heard rumors, possibly misconstrued something that Person A said) that attempts to resist will be met with violence, and thus does not resist. If person A knew that Person B had not consented to sex, they would stop immediately, but person B, fearing reprisal, never indicates either consent or a lack of it. Is this rape?
Umm yes you did say you hung around for two hours. And by saying your “Not ready” you really haven’t laid the responsibility on him. Every 16 year old guy I ever knew was out to get as far as he could. Maybe you dealt with a better class of 16 year olds then I did. And yes he should have done the “honorable thing” But we ain’t living in Camelot here. It still seems to me you could have left at any time.
No, I think you are looking at it from an adult point of view. I think you wish you had said no (very understandible given the circumstances), or walked away, or even just gone into his parents house where they were watching TV (do you really think he would have raped you in front of them on the living room floor? or carried you off and had his way with you?) And BTW I do think that 13 year old female children do have the ability to think for themselves.
I would hesistantly suggest that each of your less clearcut examples may or not be rape depending upon the nature of the relationship between the two individuals. If one were to substitute the generic term “priest” for “voodoo practitioner” and a devout believer for the woman, and you just may have a case for rape.
However, while there may be an inherently unequal balance of power in a relationship, how do you prove it legally? That’s why the simple idea of pestering someone to have sex - as - rape, does not sit well with me- it’s much too nebulous of a situation.
I’ve long since come to terms with the idea, that the media, and common person on the street refers to what happened to me as “date rape”. I know the court system stilll calls it “sexual assault” and treats it as such.