astro, it's NOT my fault! No means NO!

The BBQ Pit
101

First off Zabali, what you went through was despicable.
Nobody should ever be forced into a sexual situation that they feel very uncomfortable in. That’s my own “definition” of rape.

I think the main issue, that’s been clarified now, was with the way you phrased your account. Leaving out certain details didn’t help either.

When most people hear the word rape, they think of an overly violent, brutal sexual attack. Your first description made it seem more like you were letting the whiner have his way in order to shut him up. The striking overt differences between a jogger being raped in a park, and a girl begrudgingly giving in to her BF’s pestering, makes many people wary to use the term rape for both, even though they both are.

You have since presented the case more clearly, and it seems that more people are in agreement with you. In cases such as this, the little things not only count, they are the largest factor in what took place. Although it seems to me that bolting like a jack rabbit might have prevented the situation that night, I was not there and I’ve never been a 13 year old girl. Hence, who am I to say?

I hate rape and rapists far more than anything else I can imagine. I would love for there to be a better way of keeping it from happening, but every situation is different. There is no single remedy.

In regards to this (some of you may part company with me here), I really hate when I hear people say “No means no”, because often it doesn’t. Don’t get me wrong, if either party is uncomfortable doing anything sexual, it wrong and it’s rape. I wonder though, how many regrettable situations could have been avoided if the “no” in question were a “NO”. Playfully saying “aw c’mon, stop it” is not heard as NO, it’s often heard as “not yet”. I can’t express how awfull this is, but it happens every damn day. Girls who don’t put out on the first date, or second, or third, might have had to use “no” a few times untill they eventually stopped saying no, and consentual sex resulted. Moronic sex-crazed potential date-rapists seem to think they can get all of those little “no’s” out of the way in the first 30 minutes.

I wish people would realize that, to far too many guys, NO! means no, and nah means not yet. If I ever have a daughter, she will know that if she feels uncomfortable, her “no” should be loud enough to wake the neighbors. This may be over-simplifying a small part of the big picture, but I just wish more girls stated their apprehension more clearly. It might prevent a few or even alot of rapes, and it would keep me from breaking my knuckles on their “boyfriend’s” face.

Sorry for the rambling, did I mention that I HATE rapists?

102

PictsiePat what part of these statements in various places did you misunderstand? I SAID NO, REPEATEDLY! THE LAST THING I SAID TO HIM BEFORE HE TOOK MY SHIRT OFF WAS “I DON’T WANT TO”! This is not a “maybe” I said those things, or I only said them in my head. I said them, clearly to his face. I also resisted his advances, and said “No” nonverbally. He would not accept that as an answer. The “altercation” (or physical arguement) may have lasted 2 hours. I know we talked about normal stuff for a while there, but I cannot say how long.

Yes, it was pretty well an altercation, in that he was harassing me, physically moving me to places where I did not want to go, verbally hounding me, and sexually molesting me the whole time while applying heavy emotional pressure to boot. It was a sustained effort, and I eventually was worn out and could resist no longer.

His physical touching was not wanted, and I kept saying this, and physically preventing it, yet he continued. I was fending off his “advances” that whole time, and was in a state of exhausted shock when I arrived home. I bathed, and went straight to sleep. I slept past noon the next day.

dnooman I think you’ll find some of the links I posted in the OP of interest, they touch on what you are saying. That being, people need to learn how to communicate effectively. It specifies, that women who have been raped need to learn how to say “No” and mean it, and to learn not to send “mixed signals”.

103

A problem is “rape” has many different degrees depending on the circumstances, which anyone ought to know. All rapes are not equal in the trauma and intensity of mental, emotional, physical, and social injury to the victim. The real argument lies in where people draw the boundaries of seriousness. And obviously different people draw different boundaries.

I could talk about how diametrically different my experience is from most cases people would term as date rape, and wonder how the two can be called the same thing, but I fail to see how that would help. And it would only cause the usual suspects to go after me again, here and elsewhere.

So let me just leave well enough alone and say that maybe the conflict between those who feel date rape is not “real” enough and those who do feel it is “real” enough is to just change the word. The seriousness need not be degraded or compromised by one fraction. But some people get obsessively tied to semantics when what is really needed is an understanding of the hurt, pain, and human suffering caused by the event.

104

Una Persson Exactly.

105

Hm. In the time it took me to post, a couple of people said what I wanted to before me. Oh well, won’t be the first wasted post…

106

I’ll agree with the folks who, upon Zabali’s first description, did not think she was a “rape” victim, though to me it was simply an issue of semantics. It was clear she was emotionally traumatized and that was good enough for me. I also didn’t think it was appropriate, or sensitive, to argue vernacular to someone who is hurting. Since Zabali brought the issue up again, and appears to want to discuss it further, I’ll lend my two cents.

Zabali, while I could sense from your tone that there was more to the story, the first description you gave indeed made it sound more like a “Come on, baby, you’d do it if you loved me.” type of incident. In which case, while you still had my sympathy, I thought your boyfriend was an asshole, but not a “rapist.” There’s a big difference between “Come on, baby,” pleas from a persistent boyfriend and pulling down a girl’s pants and shoving her into a dark corner while she continually says no.

So let me just say that while I think Astro’s comments were ungentlemanly, I also think you didn’t do justice to your cause by being unclear in your first version. Like all crimes, there are elements of rape that must exist in order for it to quality as a crime. The first version you gave had an entirely different flavor to it than the second and was frankly missing some key elements of “rape.” It seemed you were emotionally manipulated into a reluctant submission while in the second version he also physically wore you down and you felt an implied threat that if you didn’t relent, he would have forced himself on you anyway. The distinction between the two is enormous in moral AND legal terms.

However. As I said in the other thread, if you were traumatized, you were traumatized. What happened was awful no matter what we label it. Please don’t get all hung up on terminology here. Does it matter if it meets some other person’s definition of “rape.” What is important to me was, IS, your reaction to the events. You obviously felt you were violated. Making love, especially for the first time, should be a wonderful, loving experience between two people who love each other and you missed out on that. That’s awful no matter how you slice it.

You do know that you didn’t need my or anyone’s validation or stamp of approval here. Let me just say that the fact that you seek it concerns me somewhat.

Take care.

107

It’s not seeking approval, or validation. If I want that, I can put into practice self affirmation techniques. :wink:

It’s that since this is a grey area, and “taboo” many people hold misconceptions as to what constitutes rape. This is one of the reasons I posted this thread, to help get people thinking, and learning to further get rid of people’s misunderstandings and finger pointings at the person who is claiming (and sometimes even has been proven) to be raped.

108

Hey, toots, I said that you should NOT feel guilty because you were in no way responsible for waht happend. After you elaborated about your experience, I agreed that you had been raped.

There was no “momentary accusing finger point”–I expect a retraction.

109

Zabali I am sorry to hear of your suffering. You were clearly raped. But your first statement of “Finally he began kissing me, still pleading. I eventually relented,…” was a problem phraise. You said you relented, but you later said the last thing you said was “I don’t want to”.
I fear that your use of the phraise “I relented” shows that you in some small way blame yourself, you didn’t relent, to the last utterance you said NO to sex. Not only were you illegaly raped due to your age, you also asserted your ability to give or not give consent. Had you been 16 and him 16 you still would have been raped because you clearly did not give concent.

If a 16 year old in a similar situation to yours had finally said “Oh well, if you insist” to such pestering, then it would not have been a rape, but clearly your case is different most fundamentally from that situation.

Astro deserves a pitting for lack of compassion for your feelings, but until we knew you had said no to the very end there would have been some concern that the rape was statutory rape (and if the boy had been a few days younger, maybe not rape at all).

110

Whoa there, pard. I won’t assume you’re including people in this characterization that were misled by your inaccurate first description, and then agreed with you upon clarification, but it kinda looks like it from here.

I realize that the details were difficult to post, but you broached the subject. If you want an accurate answer to a question (and your account was first posted in that form) or a fully-informed response to a situation, you have to post a complete question, or a detailed account of the situation. Otherwise, we’re flying blind.

So, speaking for myself, if I had read the “complete” account first, I would have been on your side from the beginning. The fact that I changed my mind should not lead you to think that I had any misconceptions at all about what constitutes rape, that I had any misunderstandings about rape, or that I was at any point “pointing the finger” at someone who had proven rape.

I do, however, reserve the right to question closely and in detail any claims of rape, especially if they seem to be incomplete, obfuscatory, or superficial at first. This should not be construed as “finger pointing,” but rather as careful consideration.

If the above was not directed at me, I beg your pardon.

111

Um…gobear you DID point an “accusatory” type finger at me, however breifly. To wit:

I did use the word “momentary” in reference to what you did, but that does not change the fact that you did do this. This, of course is MHO, my perceptions as to what it was you were doing. I “read” a slightly accusing imperious, corrective tone in what you said there. Almost as though I were a child lof some kind, with an imperfect understanding of the meaning of what I’d just implied.

I did not come out in that post, and directly state that you had retracted that statement, but I am now. Better?

112

Ogre I posted this thread to “fight ignorance” and to give my fellow Dopers the “ammo” to do so also in reference to this topic. I was referring to anyone who might hold such misconceptions as detailed in the myths section of the “Why you should know about date rape” link. It wasn’t meant in the way you took it. In other words, Dopers were, in general given “the benefit of the doubt”. I was just enabling them to continue to fight the good fight by helping them learn how to do so on this topic.

113

OK, this time I’m just gonna go ahead and agree with Ogre instead of saying the same thing.

I hope you understand that, for several of us now, it was only the lack of key information provided that had us disagreeing with the characterization of rape in your situation, NOT our understandin of the term “date rape” or anything.

114

Don’t be dense, jar. All Pictsie is saying is that the woman in the hypothetical situation has the ability to laugh in the man’s face. “But you owe me!” is not coercion by implied threat. There was no implied blackmail in the original example and no promise of harm. It’s simply pathetic cajoling.

If the woman needs to run to the state to protect her from such tactless, but harmless overtures, then she is in denial of her own responsibilities. She’s an adult. Throw a drink in the guy’s face and be done with it. To scream RAPE! is ludicrous when sexual contact has not occured and the woman can easily just say “no” to prevent it.

I’m not going to weigh in on whether or not Zabali was raped, but I do find an interesting trend in her posts. For example, in post 86 Zabali puts forth this hypothetical:

When told “no, that’s not rape”, she disagrees. More damningly, she then changes the facts of her own hypothetical. Post 96 reads, in part:

Neither blackmail nor retribution was mentioned initially. They were both added later.

The multiple recountings of what happened when she was 13 have also evolved from the original. They get progressively worse with each telling. The original from the other thread reads:

Compare this with her most recent retelling:

The differences are striking. The original story describes the incident as “boderline” and seems to be more about the fact that her loss of virginity was less than romantic (even with the full moon.) The later account tells a different tale completely - one that paints the boyfriend not as a horny 16 year old that won’t stop begging as in the first tale, but as a violent and manipulative sexual predator.

Which tale is closest to the truth? I haven’t a clue. But I must admit Zabali Clawbane’s tendency to change the facts of the debate have caused me to develop serious doubts as to her credibility here.

115

And yet, admitting that if it did happen as she described in her “expanded version” of events, then is was rape, costs nothing. Also, one can easily sympathize that the details of a traumatic experience would be hard to drag into the cold light and examine in extreme detail, and ask others to do the same. I’m willing to cut her slack on that one.

And smoke, ignore me. Twas my own wimpish insecurities speaking (but thanks) :slight_smile:

116

Just curious - did you break up with the guy the next day?

117

Hey, I didn’t retract that statement; I said that your further elucidation made it clear that you had been raped. Your first post said only that you had been “pestered” and calling that “rape” made me see red. It’s far too serious a subject for that word to be thrown about casually.

118

A Monkey With a Gun Read the timeline I posted, you’ll see that though I give more details in later posts, and clarify some things that I wasn’t clear on in my emotional state (Yes, I’ll “cop” to posting while very emotional in this thread) the basic events remain the same. I know fairly intimately now, what went on as far as the “techniques” that were used against me. I’ve had to explore them pretty thoroughly so I could learn what the warning signs were, and take steps to prevent something like that in the future. It has still hurt a great deal, typing the details out here. If it helps another one who has gone through what I went thorugh I’ll count it as worth it though.

Ask yourself, why would I have such issues, which are classic symptoms exhibited (don’t know the actual term my therapists used) by a rape survivor well BEFORE I was violently raped the second time. I have HUGE trust issues, for one thing, and I’ll state again, NONE of my relatives ever came close to molesting me, so, where did these symptoms come from? They didn’t spring out of nowhere. No one is that emotionally fucked up without an underlying “cause”.

As for the first few paragraphs of your post,

Bolding mine, from the site link named “Love and loss” in my OP.

Again, I didn’t come to terms with all that really happened until I was in a battered woman’s shelter, getting help to get out of my horribly abusive marriage. I trivialized it myself, and mostly didn’t think of it at all because it ached to do so.

He didn’t come out and verbalize the thought “If you don’t give me what I want, I’ll take it anyway.” but his actions sure said it loud and clear. For a long time, (and I still catch myself at this) I thought that since he actually didn’t say it, then I was just “imagining” the implications, that he wouldn’t have forced me, that he didn’t mean it that way etc. etc. I too, blamed myself, because I didn’t succeed in holding off his advances, so I must be wrong, right? He “tacitly” implied that he’d “take” what he wanted if I continued to resist him, by continuing to take me to shadowy parts of the yard, grope me, and verbally pressure me.

A part of me still loops through this thinking sometimes, it’s been doing it a bit today. I know, intellectually, that such reasoning is flawed, and not true. I am blameless, because I DID say no, I DID physically resist also, but he continued to pursue the matter, until he exhausted me, and I could no longer say no.

Glory No, I didn’t. I didn’t know what to do anymore, and lapsed into a funk. It was a short time later that I broke up with him, but I didn’t right away. Again, now I can look back and say “Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda” but it wasn’t so clear then. I did end up breaking up with him, because in the end, I could not reconcile his lack of respect for me.

Then, what do you want from me exactly gobear? I’m confused now.

119

Absolutely completely not. I think that anyone who thinks this is denying any sort or responsibility for their own life. If anybody tries to blackmail anyone for sexual faovrs they should be met with the only acceptable response of “here’s your gift back, or here’s my half for dinner, won’t see you later, bye”. What is the big deal. Grow up and be an adult, for fucks sake. (oohh I’m so happy the first time I say the f word in a post.) Has anybody in the last century fallen for that lame line anyway. Feel free to post under the name of “guest” if you have.

“Hey, I bought you a coke, now you have to fuck me!” How many times has that worked, boys?

120

I tell ya what, Zabali, I want nothing from you. I’m just going to leave all y’all in this thread be.