astro, it's NOT my fault! No means NO!

[furt]

Zabali, you may need to step back from this thread and take a breath.

You started this by posting a very short description of what you described as “borderline rape” and asking 40,000 strangers for opinions on whether it was or not. That may or may not have been brave or wise to do; but it definitely means you opened the can of worms.

If you were posting to “inform” you should have said so. If you yourself were never in doubt about it being rape, you should have said so. You didn’t, and I’m sorry, you have no right to be upset because you failed to explain clearly what happened the first time.

Going by your later clarifications, I’d agree you were raped, and that is a fucking horrible situation that I can only begin to imagine.

But other people have stories too, and there are men who have had their lives ruined by false allegations of rape. One of them is a good friend of mine who had a law enforcement career ruined by a mentally unstable ex-girlfreind who had umpteen different restraining orders filed on him. No proof, and every single one was thrown out of court on the first hearing. But he spent thousands on lawyers, and he now has a record, all because a therapist told a schizophrenic that she had to fight back against the men in her life. She didn’t go after the abusive dad; she went after a guy who dated her for six months and never even slept with her, consensually or otherwise.

The point is that that four-letter word is a nuclear bomb, and when you use it, you’d damn well better make yourself very clear right from the very start. You didn’t, and this trainwreck is a result.

[armedmonkey]

But Zaballi, (leaving aside what happened when you were 13 - I don’t think we’ll get anywhere by rehashing that again), I think your hypothetical about the gift and your quote from “love and loss” point to an overly broad definition of rape. The relevant quote from “love and loss” is:

@Zabali_Clawbane

Both types can take many forms — from a surprise attack by a family friend to a date who expects sex as payment for a night on the town.

Unlike rapes involving strangers, date and acquaintance rapists typically use psychological pressure or physical strength to press for sex, rather than weapons or threats of violence.

I think what you misuderstood about the above quote, as evidenced by the hypothetical situation you posted, was that “love and loss” does not say mere expectaion of sex as payment is rape. The first sentence is clumsy, but don’t take the fact that it mentions a method and a motive in the same breath as meaning that the motive is a method. What the authors meant to say is that it’s rape if the man expects sex and then attacks, probably with psychological pressure or physical strength. The hypothetical situation you posted about a woman receiving a gift and meal makes no mention of any coercion - merely a tactless proposition, and is therefore not rape.

You have to be careful not to cry wolf with rape, even in regards to a hypothetical situation in a debate. It is far too heinous a crime to allow it to become watered down with what is merely sexual harassment.

[tiny_ham]

@PictsiePat

“Hey, I bought you a coke, now you have to fuck me!” How many times has that worked, boys?

Thank you for the clarification. I was confused by your use of the term “responsibilities”. I may have used ‘common sense’ or something like that. However, I have to disagree with you if you think people don’t use this sort of blackmail. maybe not as silly as your coke example, but how about:

“I paid for this week in the bahamas…”

“I drove you all the way cross country to see your mom…”

“Come on, I’m enlisting tomorrow…”

Of course TRYING these stupid lines aren’t rape or attempted rape…it’s when someone believes that these actions ENTITLES them to pursue sexual intercourse to the point of restraint or violence that it gets ugly.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

6. If a women lets a man buy her dinner or pay for a movie or drinks, she owes him sex.

From the site link titled “Why you should know about date rape” again, from the myths section. It’s a common method used to coerce college age people into sex IIRC. Seems someone hasn’t bothered to be objective, and look at all the information presented. :rolleyes:

furt I assert, that at the very least, from my description “at the start” I was statutorily raped. I admit, I wasn’t clear at first why I was “date raped”. The age of consent, as has been discussed here more than once, in Kansas is 16 UNLESS one of the partners is more than 4 years older, but of the opposite sex. Then it’s a minor crime, with a 15 month jail time punishment. It’s a worse punishment if the partners are of the same gender though. If the person having sex is of legal age to consent, between 16 and 18, but their partner is between 14 and 16, it’s one kind of crime, but it’s a class 6 felony if the one of the people having sex is over 16, but under 18, and the younger of the pair is under the age of 14. It’s more clearly explained in my link titled “Kansas statutes”.

A Monkey With a Gun I did admit that I didn’t paint the best illustrations of what I was trying to get across. And actually, I’ve known a girl who was very upset, because a guy tried to use the “browbeating, guilt” also known as “you owe me” method to get sex out of her. She didn’t fall for it, and she dumped him. He tried to trash her reputation, but he’d done similar things to other girls, and word about that got out. That’s why I phrased things the way I did. I was trying to communicate that situation. I didn’t manage to do so, and I already admitted it. She felt he was trying to “make her” or “con” her out of sex, and if she’d been any less street smart it might have worked. That girl didn’t take shit from anyone though. I learned from her.

jarbabyj You illustrated it more gracefully than I did.

[Otto]

Badgering for two hours in the face of repeatedly being told “no” until the resistance is worn down enough to elicit a “yes” is coercion. If it’s not rape, it’s the next thing to it.

[Dog80]

@jarbabyj

Woah. PLEASE tell me what you mean by this. Are you saying that a woman taken out on a date IS required to ‘repay’ her benefactor with sexual favors??

Since the dawn of human civilisation, romantic meals and presents were an implicit way of saying “I want to get into your panties”. Now, if the guy is stupid enough to express his intention explicitly, then, of course, he ain’t going to get any.
But rape is a far cry from that.

@Zabali_Clawbane

I said “No, I’m not ready for that.” He continued to plead, and beg, and would not relent. Finally he began kissing me, still pleading. I eventually relented, and lost my virginity in his parent’s backyard under the full moon. Romantic? Hardly. It was borderline rape, because I said “No” and continued to say “No” for about 2 hours, but he wouldn’t accept that as an answer, and finally pressured me into it.

You are obviously hurt from what happened that day, but I still don’t think it was rape (even after reading the clarification post).

As I understand it, you gave consent into having sex, but later, for whatever reason, regreted it. The fact that he was pestering you for two hours is irrelevant since you gave consent in the end.

Now you are branding your ex-BF as a “rapist” because your feelings were hurt.

Sorry baby, but no sympathy from me here.

[lezlers]

Zabili,

Your insistance that the pain you suffered afterwards should serve as proof that you were raped worries me.

Someone’s reaction to an event should not serve to define that event.

It obviously goes to show that it was traumatic and horrible for you (understandably) but the moment it should go to show that the act that triggered these feelings was criminal, is where using your reactions to what happened to prove that it did in fact happen is going to far.

Now, your third recounting of the event proves to me that you were in fact raped. You were statutorily raped from the get-go (Canvas, no one here was denying that), but your first two recounts did not indicate that to me.

The same basic facts were not present in each re-telling, as you advocate. The total 180 that most of the posters to both threads made at your third re-telling should demonstrate that to you quite clearly.

Please don’t think I’m discounting what happened to you. I believe that it was in fact, rape (per your latest recounting). It has obviously impacted your life very negatively, and you have my deepest, heart-felt sympathies.

I just think that your methods of “proving” to us here that it was, were not effective.

[Dog80]

What lezlers said above…

[The_Asbestos_Mango]

Sorry, but even with the new details added, I’m not convinced Zabali was raped, any more than I could claim that I was raped when a stranger assaulted me as I was walking home from work one night many years ago, put his hand up my shirt and fondled my breasts as I was struggling and screaming “Get your fucking hands off of me, get your fucking hands off of me” (neighbors looking out their windows and smirking at the whole thing, btw.) It was a sexual assault of sorts, but of a far lower order than actual rape.

By reading the accounts, it appears to me that Zabali continued to be in this boy’s company, consensually, while he was fondling her. She stated in an earlier post that he picked her up several times and carried her to a more secluded area of the yard. She apparently made no attempt to escape from the boy, even though she apparently had at least one opportunity to do so.

If she had said, “No, and I’m going home” and he had physically prevented her from leaving, forcibly pinned her to the ground and forcibly had sex with her, I would agree that she was raped.

If he had overtly threatened her with physical violence if she didn’t comply with his desires, I would agree that she was raped.

From her posts, I would say that some lower order of sexual assault occurred, but by her own admission, she stayed voluntarily, and agreed to have sex with him in exchange for, what, peace?

A previous poster stated that Zabali was changing her story to make herself look good. While I’m not in agreement, I can’t help but make note of the fact that a lot of the details, such as the fondling against her resistance, were not added until after several people, including myself, stated that, based on the way she described the situation, we did not think she was raped.

[leander]

I simply do not understand why you referred to it as “borderline rape”.

[Cheesesteak]

Thea, while I generally agree with you on what constitutes a rape, I disagree with respect to Zabali’s situation, because of her age. While it’s easy for us as adults to say “just go home” or just do this or that to get away, it’s not as easy for a 13 year old who may not have our experience and self confidence.

This is exactly the reason why we have statutory rape on the books, young people are not always able to make good decisions, and if they agree to something like sex, they may not really want to do it. For that reason, I don’t give her “consent” any weight at all.

[Ogre]

Thea, while I generally agree with you on what constitutes a rape, I disagree with respect to Zabali’s situation, because of her age. While it’s easy for us as adults to say “just go home” or just do this or that to get away, it’s not as easy for a 13 year old who may not have our experience and self confidence.

Precisely.

[Nightime]

The reason more details were added later is probably that it is uncomfortable for Zabali to replay the incident in her mind.

The same thing often happens to rape victims, in their retellings to police or during a trial. It can be torment - some people have said it is almost like reliving it.
I didn’t respond to Zabali’s story in the other thread, because I suspected from the start that we weren’t getting the relevant facts. It turns out I was right.
For those who still disagree that what happened was rape, consider that her last words were “I don’t want to do this”, that the guy repeatedly physically moved her to dark, isolated areas, and that she was only 13.
I still can’t agree with Zabali that a guy who says “I bought you dinner, you owe me sex”, in the absence of any threats, is a rapist, since the obvious response would be to laugh in his face or just walk away.
I almost get the feeling that Zabali wants to broaden the definition of rape in order to make sure that what happened to her is included. But believe me, Zabali, you don’t have to. You were raped, and it wasn’t your fault.

[catsix]

jarbabyj said:
Here’s a tip: even if you get drunk, have dinner, go home with a guy, strip naked, kiss him, lay down and THEN decide you don’t want to have sex, you say no. If he persists…he’s raping you.

And if you do that with no intention of having sex with the guy, you’re the asshole, not him.

Ogre said:
At no point was the situation out of your control. You easily could have walked out.

Hell yes she could have. Go in the damn house and call your mother to get a ride home. Shit, run in there and lock the doors.

villa said:
It’s situations like yours that made me come round to the belief that rape needs an affirmative consent standard.

The only possible benefit I could see to this would be that it’d protect the men who get accused of rape by the woman who says ‘Yes, I went home with him from the bar, ripped my clothes off, kissed him all over, then dived in his bed, but I brushed his hand away once so he should’ve known I didn’t want sex.’

You were taken advantage of, but you were not raped.

Exactly. Being used for a quick lay by someone who wants a birthday present isn’t rape no matter how much the other party regrets it after being ‘counseled’ years later.

Date rape is very real, and I guarantee all of us know someone who has lived through it.

Yes, and when date rape is really happening to you, you do strange things to try to stop it - like attempting to crawl out the front door of the house naked as the day you were born to escape the person who is hurting you. What you don’t do is eventually decide to screw the guy because it’s his birthday and he’s convinced you that he deserves a gift.

jarbabyj said:
This is what I’m concerned about with some of the folks in this thread. A rapist can be your dad, your teacher, your boyfriend of nine years. It can be YOUR HUSBAND. It doesn’t have to end with a woman in the hospital bleeding. Not with a bang, but with a whimper.

It takes a lot more than ‘I won’t like you anymore.’ or ‘I’ll be mad at you’, though.

yosemitebabe said:
This is a tragic and ill-advised discussion, I fear. Zabali_Clawbane obviously suffered a lot of pain and this guy was a first-class asshole.

And yet this is the second time that she herself has started this discussion.

Ogre said:
This account is much clearer to me. And yes, based on it, I must agree that you were raped.

I still can’t wrap my head around that, because the opportunity to leave the back yard and go inside still existed.

A Monkey with a Gun said:
The multiple recountings of what happened when she was 13 have also evolved from the original. They get progressively worse with each telling. The original from the other thread reads:

That and she pretty much says in the other thread that she didn’t consider herself as having been raped until the advocate at the battered women’s sheltered started counseling her about her problems with men.

jarbabyj said:
Of course TRYING these stupid lines aren’t rape or attempted rape…it’s when someone believes that these actions ENTITLES them to pursue sexual intercourse to the point of restraint or violence that it gets ugly.

So what about when someone uses one of those lines, the other person agrees, they get it on, and then years later the person who agreed to it says they were ‘coerced’?

[Cisco]

@Thea Logica

A previous poster stated that Zabali was changing her story to make herself look good. While I’m not in agreement, I can’t help but make note of the fact that a lot of the details, such as the fondling against her resistance, were not added until after several people, including myself, stated that, based on the way she described the situation, we did not think she was raped.

Well, I mean, I’m just saying what I’m seeing here. It looks to me like if you say something like this:

If she had said, “No, and I’m going home” and he had physically prevented her from leaving, forcibly pinned her to the ground and forcibly had sex with her, I would agree that she was raped.

She’s just going to come back and say “Oh yea, that’s what happened” until everybody agrees she was raped.

I think if the situation was like her current version says it was and her motives (spreading knowledge about date rape, as if no one knows it’s wrong and foul ) were true and just then she would have made herself more clear from the start.

[Ms2001]

@CanvasShoes

Hmm, somehow I missed the part where those who were insisting that, despite her having been 13, what happened was NOT “really rape” came back in and recanted their original ugliness.

Well, I said that in the other thread, and in light of the new details, I’ve changed my mind. Her age has nothing to do with it; it’s rape because of the physical intimidation and because he proceeded to have sex even as she was saying no.

But considering that the most important details were left out of the original story, it’s a stretch to call the original responses “ugliness”.

[The_Asbestos_Mango]

@Cheesesteak

Thea, while I generally agree with you on what constitutes a rape, I disagree with respect to Zabali’s situation, because of her age. While it’s easy for us as adults to say “just go home” or just do this or that to get away, it’s not as easy for a 13 year old who may not have our experience and self confidence.

This is exactly the reason why we have statutory rape on the books…

On this point, I can agree. The boy should have done time in juvie based on this alone. But I place forcible rape and statutory rape in separate categories of crime.

Nighttime

For those who still disagree that what happened was rape, consider that her last words were “I don’t want to do this”, that the guy repeatedly physically moved her to dark, isolated areas, and that she was only 13.

I think repeatedly is the key word here. After the first time, she had an opportunity to leave the scene, and chose not to do so. Instead, she went back to sit on the porch. With him. Repeatedly.

Quote:
jarbabyj said:
Here’s a tip: even if you get drunk, have dinner, go home with a guy, strip naked, kiss him, lay down and THEN decide you don’t want to have sex, you say no. If he persists…he’s raping you.

And if you do that with no intention of having sex with the guy, you’re the asshole, not him.

[/Quote]

Agreed. However, picture the following scenario.

You meet a guy at a bar, have a few drinks, decide to go home with him. Much fondling and nudity ensues. The guy makes some unbelievably jerkish comment (as guys who have had a few drinks are wont to do) that turns you off completely. You say, “You jerk, I can’t believe you said that. No way I’m shagging you now” and reach for your clothes. The guy says “fuck you, you fucking tease” and drags you back onto the bed.

I think this would be a clear cut case of rape.

Cisco, I think you were being a bit too harsh.

[minty_green]

@Zabali_Clawbane

From the site link titled “Why you should know about date rape” again, from the myths section. It’s ["If a women lets a man buy her dinner or pay for a movie or drinks, she owes him sex. ] a common method used to coerce college age people into sex IIRC.

“Coerce”? I think you need to find a better dictionary. “Persuade,” sure. “Pressure,” quite likely.

But “coerce”? Come on now.

[The_Asbestos_Mango]

Og help me, I’m in agreement with minty green

Stand back, folks. I think my head is about to explode.

[torie]

@catsix

And if you do that with no intention of having sex with the guy, you’re the asshole, not him.

Uncalled for.

Hell yes she could have. Go in the damn house and call your mother to get a ride home. Shit, run in there and lock the doors.

Let me ask you…Have you ever been picked up and forcably moved from one point to another? Have you ever felt the intimidation of knowing the odds against you are not good if you choose to resist? What would have happened if she had ran, and he had caught her?

Exactly. Being used for a quick lay by someone who wants a birthday present isn’t rape no matter how much the other party regrets it after being ‘counseled’ years later.

I respect your right to that opinion, but I beleive you are being cruel here.

Yes, and when date rape is really happening to you, you do strange things to try to stop it - like attempting to crawl out the front door of the house naked as the day you were born to escape the person who is hurting you. What you don’t do is eventually decide to screw the guy because it’s his birthday and he’s convinced you that he deserves a gift.

Have you been raped? Do you know how victims behave in that situation? How many actual rapes have you been present for to come to that conclusion?

I still can’t wrap my head around that, because the opportunity to leave the back yard and go inside still existed.

No, it didn’t. You really think a 13 year old girl is going to be able to outrun or resist a 16 year old boy?

That and she pretty much says in the other thread that she didn’t consider herself as having been raped until the advocate at the battered women’s sheltered started counseling her about her problems with men.

And I have heard battered women say that they didn’t realize what was happening to them was abuse until they were told. Traumatic events like these are so hard to wrap your head around. It is simply easier for your brain to tell it self it didn’t happen, until someoneforces you to deal with it.

I am not trying to be mean. I just think that maybe you need more education on the subject. It is not as simple as you are making it in your head.