I think that the above post is possibly the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on an internet message board, and possibly the nicest thing ever.
But then I’m strange like that 
candida - yes, I am. I do and have said that blowing up a civilian passenger bus eg is abominable. Actions on both sides are abominable. I don’t think either side’s actions should excuse the others.
My current problem with Israel is that they are supposedly a democracy, and have a greater choice of how to act. Maybe it is unfair to expect a better level of behaviour from them, but we are always told that the reason the US supports Israel is because they are a democracy, etc etc. So act like one, don’t act like a oppressive tyrant. The thing that really distresses me is the huge imbalance of power. Israel is effectively bullying a much weaker, increasingly desperate Palestine. It’s for this reason I believe their behavior is tantamount to “goading.” (Also - when I say “Israel” - plese read that as the Sharon administration. Just to disclaimer again that I don’t believe Sharon’s regime is in any way truly representative of the majority of Israelis).
istara - I would respectfully offer a slight caveat to your , otherwise entirely admirable post.
Namely this - possibly, due to the nation state of Israel having been the target of so much hostility in it’s time, possibly they have become conditioned beyond repair into believing they live in a permanent state of seige.
I would suggest that possibly the single most outstanding overture the Arabic World could offer, in the interests of procuring a workable peace in the region, would be to simply state in totally open terms - once and for all…
“Isreal, we accept you. We accept you as brothers in our region, and we promise to help you survive. Please help us help our Palestinian brothers, and please let us help you too…”
I reckon such a pronouncement, by all members of the Arab League, and offered with total sincerity, would soooooooooooooo go towards helping things I suspect.
That being said, if it’s not being too pushy, would you be so kind please as to tell us about yourself istara? You write so wonderfully well! 
Boo Boo Foo - thanks for your post!
I totally agree with you that the Arab world needs to formally recognise Israel to move things on, but I don’t know when or if that will happen, at least in the near future.
I think a lot of things need to be recognised on both sides. That bombing civilians is wrong. That mistakes have been made by both sides, serious, far reaching mistakes. That some land was unfairly and illegally taken. That lies and libel in the media on both sides hinder rather than help. That the US is unfairly biased towards Israel, just as the Arab world is unfairly biased towards Palestine.
[off topic] about me, I am a UK origin journalist, I worked in the UK and Australia before coming here to Dubai, where I work producing business TV and general news TV, for two different companies.
My one regret is that I haven’t visited the US, so my perceptions of a lot of things there are based on stuff I read, and the experiences of friends. I would like to visit there, and find out what it is really like to perceive the news as an American - what the networks really show, what the papers really print, what the majority of people actually read, watch and hear, compared to what is available to them.
Eg: here, except for us media types who get access to newswires and free internet access in a special zone, there is virtually no way for the average Arab to get a fair picture of the Israeli situation. Quite apart form the fact that the newspapers are obviously biased pro-Palestine, many Israeli websites are blocked, and calling Israel is difficult - the international +972 dialing code is blocked, though you can get through on +970 (mobile numbers?)[/off topic]
Well gee, istara, that’s precisely what has to change it seems to me. History shows that any country, absolutely ANY country can be manipulated via the media into being all sorts of yucky things - from mild yucky through to draconian yucky - determined I guess by the inherent malevolence of the regime which controls that media.
A belief in a true “freedom of the press” is probably what makes the Western World the place that it is, I rather think.
My father is Austrian, from a town called Podina on the Italian border. He emigrated to Australia after WW2 during the period that Austria was under communist control. He always used to tell me the story of his first day of walking the streets of Sydney after his arrival, and reading the newspaper headlines on the stands outside of newsagencies - and remarking to himself how openly critical the Australian press were towards the Federal Government if they wanted to be. He says it’s one of the reasons why he so became so proud to become an Australian citizen.
If anything could be brought into the open as a reason to campaign against in the Arabic world, surely it must be their blatant manipulation of the media - and in particular - the open censorship of media from the outside world. And here’s my reasoning… if any country is so darn sure that their way of life is superior to someone else’s - they should be prepared to risk open criticism and put it to the test. They should be prepared to let their citizens be able to read and hear and see anything they wish to see or read or hear - at least in terms of the media and the internet. To simply argue that “we do this to protect the spiritual purity of our people” is bullshit - pure bullshit. All it results in is an indoctrinated culture with a skewered view on certain issues.
And there’s nothing noble about that. It allows the seeds of emnity to stay alive it seems to me.
My intent was not to flatter.
It is just that on this issue the positions are becomming more entrenched than ever. Prejudice and its flipside, personal allegiance, are motivating attitudes as never before. It is often difficult to see through the fog of motivations, to understand why someone takes a stand one way or another.
This is a question that has come to intrigue me more and more - why do people care so much about the doings of this tiny country? For many reasons of history, religion and politics, it seems to be the focus of fears, hatreds and asperations of many around the world who have no direct contact or interest.
The theories are various, and my own could probably fill a book. The point is, with so many conflicting interests at stake (even though many are symbolic rather than real), an objective stance based on the same set of moral criteria applied to other situations is, in my opinion, quite rare - and I say this while disagreeing with the moral criteria which evidently motivate your opinions.
Perhaps this would be a good place to ask generally - those who post in this thread, what, in all honesty, motivates your interest?
malthus
That is a very good question.
For me, in no particular order:
-
my disgust in seeing suffering of people (both sides) for such a long period of time where there could be a solution (I believe), but nothing succesful has been done about it
-
the immediacy of the situation - it is not history, it is now
-
a sense of fairness - disgusted with people having land taken off them, when they have had contact with the land for ages, and the huge inbalance of power of one side over the other
-
the disrepect shown by the Israelis towards the Palestinians - regarding them as sub-human
-
that the Israeli government is supposed to be a democracy - this is a slur on democracy
All these things motivate my interest in the situation. Similarities with South Africa prior to 1990s and Timor prior to 2002.
So, malthus, how does your moral framework differ such that you agree to see a continuation of attacks on innocent poeple by a democratic govenment.
A strange fascination with the politics of it all. It’s intricate, entwined, embedded, and so far reaching. Like a central terminal of modern history.
I could argue for either side at this point just from what I’ve picked up in past debates. Sometimes I just referee. Why, I don’t really know. In the preceeding post by antechinus certain things would trip my propaganda meter like “slur on democracy”, “attacks on innocent people” and “having land taken off them…” You know there’s at least some factoid they are conveniently disregarding, and that can happen on either side. I did not notice any such things in McDuff’s OP, it seemed to be a straightforward “WTF?” Fair debate fodder.
Because I now live in a part of the world where I have met a lot of Palestinian people, and for the first time have really been confronted with the situation.
And also, because it seems to me that the situation there has never been worse: the Israeli military has never been ordered to act this aggressively before, and the Palestinians have never been quite this desperate, disempowered, and oppressed before.
Well, at least some of the bombings should decrease now Saddam won’t be able to give the families money posthumously. I know that’s got to be some kind of factor. If we could cut the arms shipments in, too, there might be a chance for real peace. It’s not that Palestine has to disarm, it’s just that those elements are fairly provoking in and of itself.
So, it’s not just Israel and Palestine, it’s the neighboring states.
Hm let me put forward a “conservative leftist” view:
The proper way to stop the bombings is to returned the illegaly occupied land to the palestinians.
E-Sabbath, the money paid by Saddam is such a minor factor that I seriously doubt that the volume of suicide bombings will change at all due to his removal.
Everybody knows that there will not be any peace until Israel has completely withdrawn from the territories occupied in 1967. Though there are many disagreements about other things only extremists on either side do not see this as the end result of a peace process.
I don’t know if it’s such a minor factor, as far as personal motivation goes. I rather suspect it’s why the Israeli forces are now bulldozing houses of families. “Well, if I kill myself, my family will be taken care of. I’m not doing so well these days…” “If you kill yourself, your family will be thrown out of house and home.”
And I’d like a cite for that last half of the statement. It certainly seems to have a goodly number of factual errors. “Everybody knows” “completely withdrawn” and “Only extremists on either side”
What is that, argument ad populaum?
Randy: Are you not aware that the position of some of those outfits conducting the bombings is that the entirety of Israel is “illegally occupied” by Israel?
E-Sabbath:
Well, I believe it takes good rethorical skills, and a whole lot of determination to argue that the dominant reason that people are blowing up themselves and others would be an economic one.
As to why Israel makes the decisions Israel makes: Jehova only knows…
I think most observers would rather make it Saddam trying to ride on the general support for the palestinians that exists in the Arab populations. I won’t provide a cite; I’ll trust your good judgement.
About the withdrawal of Israel from occupied territories there are UN resolutions to that effect.
Monty:
I am aware of that. But their position is a marginal one and would be even more so, were it not for the ongoing occupation, the ongoing establishment of new settlements on occupied territory, and the ongoing harrassment of the palestinian people.
Now, in a sovereign state with a prosperous people and a working law, those people could contained. In an occupied state, with a disparing, desperate people, they gain support (public, logistic) that they could never hope for otherwise.
I mentioned earlier in the thread about a social science study into suicide bombing (Science, 7 March 2003, Vol. 299, No. 5612, American Association for the Advancement of Science), here it said that suicide bombers were not generally poorer than the surrounding population and were not motivated by economic factors. Also Saddam Hussein has only being paying this cash for a year (exactly a year next Wednesday), if it was a major factor you would of expected a sharp rise in after that period, as it happens the figures are roughly equal.
The Israeli peace bloc recognizes that only a total withdrawal will bring peace,
http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/
The UN,
Also on a more anecdotal level, I do know several Israelis with more centist politics than Gush Shalom, they pretty much agree that a total withdrawal from the territories occupied in 1967 will be the end result of any peace process.
Trying to ride the support? Have you seen the pictures?? They idolize the man, the assault on Iraq is viewed as an assault on themselves personally. One guy referred to Baghdad as ‘the capital of the Islamic world.’ Most likely because Saddam told them so himself.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/299/5612/1534,
For the article on suicide bombings and it appears that saddam has been paying them for two years not one (the one year refers to the higher amount) so it’s difficult to judge the effect from the figures as that is the length of the al-Asqua initfada, but the fact that the raising of the money paid had no effect on the number of suicide bombings is still in an indication that it is a minor factor.
Yep, so he was successful. A not righteous man capitalizing off the righteous claims of the palestinian people.
Something he could never do had the occupation ended.
[nitpick]Actually, Tee, Baghdad has been the capital of the entire Arab empire for long periods and has importance close to mecca, as i’ve understood it.[/nitpick]