So is there any chance that the pathetic turnout for this event will put to lie the idea that America is literally Nazi Germany and that there are massive crowds of Nazis roaming all over America ready to wreak havoc and commit genocide, all at the behest of Donald Trump? Because I’ve noticed, shall we say, a bit of a warped perspective over the past year, with non-stop alarmist posts from 75% of all my friends on Facebook acting as if this country is currently under siege by a gargantuan army of fascists. Look, I don’t like Donald Trump any more than these people do and I don’t like racists and white supremacists, but the internet has seriously exaggerated their numbers and the threat that they actually pose.
Hitler’s original Nazis started out as a small lunatic fringe too. Germany fucked up by not taking them seriously from the get-go. And they are dangerous. Some of them are killers.
Hey, cool strawman! But no, probably it just reinforces the fact that white supremacists are fearful cowards.
Yeah, and what was up with all that “Y2K Bug” stuff? The techies were setting their hair on fire from running around trying to “fix” everything, and it turned out not to be much of a problem at all!
It’s not really a strawman, I’m not trying to argue on behalf of these people, they’re worthless pieces of shit - but their power and number is grossly exaggerated.
These people call it “free speech” when they advocate the oppression and murder of other people. That advocacy succeeded at least once, leading to 65 million deaths and the reshaping of the political world.
Last year they gathered to “speak freely” and almost as an afterthought killed a woman and injured many other people.
It’s not “just speech” or advocacy with these people. They admire violence. They long for it. Violence is in their imagery and their fantasies of the Good Old Days.
It proves only that most racists are brave only in the voting booth. And some on the Internet.
I concur that the ideas are dangerous and anachronistic. The proper response is still not mob violence. We have a functioning democracy and a functioning criminal justice system. Do you think vigilantism will have a net positive or a net negative effect? I think many or underestimating how the actions of the radical left are backfiring.
If I were Russia I’d arm and fund radical left wing groups. That would be as effective as the Bernie Bros are in fracturing a coalitions and galvanizing the opposition. You guys have to think beyond 1st order effects.
It functions for you because you are white. That is not so true for others.
This is why they are pissed, but you are only concerned about getting your feelings being hurt.
But there wasn’t any mob violence. The nazis had their pathetic little rally and left unmolested. The counter-protesters held signs and said things and generally behaved in a peaceful manner. (A few black bloc idiots knocked over a couple of trashcans, but that hardly counts as “mob violence.” There’s worse chaos after a normal ball game.) Overall it was a peaceful day. I’m not sure what you’re complaining about.
Also, if the numbers of nazis and anti-nazis had been reversed, do you seriously think the day would have been so peaceful? The only side that has killed people is the nazi side.
Nazis came to power with 37% of the vote. The error you’re making is to assume that we’re going to be able to put the brakes on an authoritarian regime once we see hundreds of thousands of marchers with hooded robes or swastika flags. When it gets to that point, it means the takeover is complete. Too late then. It doesn’t take a majority for authoritarians to gain extreme power; it just takes a majority of people not to care enough to stop them before they begin to wreck the institutions that support democracy.
Look at the rhetoric of this administration. Look at its policies that are clearly driven by racial animus. Look at the daily assaults on truth and the rule of law. If you don’t like the comparisons to Nazi Germany, fine, there are other authoritarian regimes that can serve as examples, such as Turkey, Russia, Poland, or Hungary. Some are left-leaning, some lean to the right. The ideology is irrelevant. We’re living in a time when ordinary people are more likely to support authoritarianism and institutions that behave in authoritarian ways than institutions that support democracy and liberty. It’s all around you, and I’m alarmed you’re not noticing.
I’m not entirely sure, but I THINK he may be complaining that somebody i this thread expressed the opinion that if those two dozen shitheels got their asses kicked, it would be a good thing. And because the expressed of that sentiment didn’t get torn a new asshole by everybody reading the thread, that proves that we’re without exception advocates of vigilantism and mob violence. :dubious:
(Again, I’m not absolutely sure of my hypothesis. It is consistent with my impression of octopus’s debate style, but I’m not married to it. If I win anything, y’all can give it to septimus.)
Ughhhhhh. This conversation again, for the millionth time.
The Nazis were able to take over because Germany was a mess, it had just been through a horrific war, the economy sucked, there was widespread and very well-grounded fear of communism and anarchism (two other things that can take over when a country is a mess) - all the circumstances were properly aligned for the Nazis to rise, more than just “people not caring enough to stop them.”
America is in no such position. You’re forgetting about the concept of checks and balances. Whatever authoritarian leanings Trump may have, are still kept restrained by the existing system of government which is the cumulative result of centuries of maintenance by all the various people and groups who have been the stewards of American democracy. It’s not all going to fall apart just because we have a president who wants to be an authoritarian and a handful of racists around the country who idealize the Nazis.
The military is also one of those stewards of democracy and all of the senior officers who went through the Naval Academy and West Point with strict honor codes, and studied history and political science, and all the fighter pilots and commanders of bomber wings and commanders of nuclear submarines, these people are not just going to let the country fall apart, not by a damn sight…don’t even tell me “oh, all the military officers let Germany go down the drain/sided with the Nazis”, Germany’s military at the time was a joke, it was totally incompetent, there were still aristocrats BUYING commissions within living memory of Hitler. Their military did not have remotely the same kind of cohesion that America’s does.
That’s just not true. C’mon rat avatar, you don’t have to continuously make stuff up.
I’m not sure what you are saying here.
Yet we have an authoritarian, xenophobic commander in chief that is starting trade wars and saber rattling.
FWIW, much of the mindset that drove that party to power in Germany was exported from the US including the writings of Americans like Henry Ford and Madison Grant.
These people had significant amounts of power before WWII and have gained power through methods like gerrymandering. To pretend that it wasn’t the white fear of becoming a minority that drove a lot of the electorate to elect Trump is ignoring what studies have shown.
They strategically would prefer to have it appear Antifa and emotional leftists are initiating the violence. I guess the fantasy could happen if media presence and police presence were out of the picture; so could a lot of things…
Interesting discussion between Lamoral and Asahi, looking forward to the next installment.
I think (IMHO) that our marchers are closer to “Copperheads” than “Nazis”. For those who don’t know about them, Copperheads were Northerners during the American Civil War who were sympathetic to the Southern rebels (or at least willing to let them secede and Stop the War). They were predominately in the Southern part of the Midwest (Southern Indiana/Ohio/Illinois) and were quite vociferous, even electing Congressman (for example: Clement Vallandigham of Ohio) and organizing large marches threatening to break off the ‘Western’ (what is now the US Midwest) states into their own country if Washington DC didn’t end the war.
Not surprised if you never heard of them, because while they marched and boasted and threatened, they never really accomplished much. Vallandigham ended up being literally tossed into the Confederacy and finally landing in Canada. As the popular historian Bruce Catton noted (and I paraphrase here):
I think we have something of the same situation here; yes, they talk and write and organize militias and parade around…but on the (very) few occasions that someone tries to start something (Oklahoma City or that Bundy stuff), it turns out they tuck their tails and don’t start something that would get a lot of them dead or in jail.
Now can that change to a more dangerous form? Oh yes, certainly. But it would require a leader who could rally, organize, give them confidence, and keep the Government off their necks. And no, that is NOT Donald Trump. Trump could not organize an orgy in a Whorehouse. And the other bogeymen (Miller, Stone) simply don’t have the necessary populist following (they are more comfortable standing in front of (well-paying) groups telling them how things are wrong and how they can fix it–Copperheads, in other words.
We shall see; watch out for the person that has both organizational skills and the verbal ability/personal presence to rally people to thier ‘cause’. Haven’t seen them yet; doesn’t mean they aren’t out there.
But right now, I’d say Lamoral has the better of the argument.
IMHO as always. YMMV.
Wasn’t that what World War II was all about, violent suppression of Nazis?
It would also require a breakdown of civil order, either through economic collapse or some other means - another scenario in which America is very different from 1930s Germany. Trade war notwithstanding, America is a prosperous country. Almost nobody is literally going hungry in this country.
The most dire economic catastrophe in this country is healthcare - people are being gouged relentlessly at every single level of healthcare, often to the point of deep debt - yet not only are there not riots and rebellions over this, there aren’t even protests that I’m aware of.
Was it? I’d say no. I’d say it was a response for the Pearl Harbor attack by the Japanese. But maybe my history book is wrong. At least with regards to the US’s involvement.
Is your interpretation of the attack on the Taliban for sheltering Bin Laden that we are at war with radical Muslims in the US?