I agree with you on everything but one point.
It was summer. I was wearing a T-shirt.
For a while.
:eek:
Well spit.
You’d think if I attacked somebody, I’d’ve done a much better job of it. Pretty darn feeble for a Fury, wouldn’t you say?
I’m too cold to get properly worked up, can we reschedule a proper attack to say, sometime next Wednesday? With a break in the middle for tea? Gotta keep up our strength to ensure the proper amount of viciousness for the audience…
Well, I wouldn’t either, unless 35 years of research contradicted what they say, when defending their reprehensible actions.
Oh, wait…
tisiphone for a second there I thought you were ‘coming out’ as a furry. Oh well, I must continue my search for my significant otter.
tdn, I would love to read more about this therapy if you happen to know where I can find the information. (If it’s posted to this thread, I apologize. This is a very engaging thread, but a long one, and I’ve been reading it on and off over a period of two days. I’m sure I’ve missed a few things!)
And I have a question for Try As I Might… in particular, but also everyone here. What do you think about similar crimes–like peeping toms and men who secretly videotape people in vulnerable situations (like a public change room, etc)? Do you think the primary motivation is the same? I ask Try As I Might specifically because if I’m remembering correctly, he was a prosecutor, and I’m curious how those cases are handled and thought of in the legal community. It came to mind because I have experienced both, and the feelings for me, anyway, are the same–feeling exposed, vulnerable, violated, angry and helpless.
This thread also led me to think about something that happened to me. I am curious about how other people would view the following–was it a simple mistake? An indication to deeper conflicts? Was it about sex at all, or about aggression or entitlement?
I had a ‘friend with benefits’. One night we were without condoms and so agreed that we would not have intercourse. Over the course of the night, things became very hot and heavy, and we were both naked, very bothered, and bemoaning greatly our lack of condoms. He decided to enter me anyway, unexpectedly to me!, and I tried to push him away and started to holler for him to stop. He continued to thrust a few moments longer, and I told him that he ought to think about what he was doing, because I did not want this to happen at all. He thrusted a few times more and then got off of me.
I was mad as hell, but at the time, I just thought his desire had momentarily bulldozed over his rational mind. Reading this thread, I can see now how his decision to initiate and (momentarily) have intercourse could be about entitlement, or aggression, or power. But I don’t think he set out to abuse me. I had known him a long time and had no negative interaction with him before or after. We had been in similar situations previously (no condom, no sex) without this happening.
I guess after reading this thread, I’m questioning whether it was a breakdown of self-control or about something deeper. I think there aren’t any definitive answers without probing his mind to boot. I’m just genuinely interested in hearing other people’s ideas here.
Well, FWIW, (and this is only my opinion), I don’t think you were raped. When you asked your friend to stop, he did. He may not have stopped on a dime, but he did stop.
I think you were entitled to feel angry because this guy push his hand a little, but I also don’t think he’s a monster. YMMV.
Alice, thanks for the response. No, I don’t think those things, either, but all this discussion about any sex without consent is rape and rape is never motivated by sex got me thinking about it and (like I said earlier) interested in hearing opinions. Honestly, I do believe there are sometimes grey areas and this was one of them (to me). For example, it could have ended a lot differently.
If anything at all, perhaps he felt with our history together, that I might not mind if he just took the ‘initiative’ and perhaps I would be so caught up in my feelings that I wouldn’t care about the lack of protection.
First, he didn’t stop immediately. He continued much longer than can be explained simply by the time it took to understand what was being said. Second, he knew that consent was absent. It was crystal clear to him that he did not have consent because of the preceding discussion. That was sex initiated without consent and continued after the lack of consent was made absolutely clear, and that makes it rape.
I do think that this sort of rape is usually far less harmful than the other forms (where the perp doesn’t even concern himself with the need for consent), but it’s still rape. Failing to label this as rape helps to justify those who wish to believe that consent cannot be revoked after <insert act here>, and those who believe that consent can be imputed based on circumstances. Since both beliefs are rampant and since these beliefs lead to rapes, I do not wish to allow such beliefs to persist.
Grey area indeed. I don’t think you provided enough detail – in fact, on a message board it may be impossible to – for anyone to make a clear judgement. We weren’t there, so we are left to use our imaginations a little bit, and so some amount of prejudice is likely to creep in.
In the progress of date rape, I don’t think there is a clear demarcation where a pleasant voice springs from a nearby speaker, saying “Warning: you have just crossed over from consentual sex into rape. Have a nice day.”
If you said no and he continued to thrust a couple more times, while his logical brain (decidedly on vacation) tried to process what you had just said, that would be considered pretty normal. Had he thrust another 35 times, while you continued to say no, most people would consider that to be a clear case of rape. So the rape/no rape boundry can be defined as an additional 3-34 times. How’s that for clear as mud?
Hm…
I said way back on I can’t remember what page that there are many forms of rape. I cannot honestly say this is one of them. It’s possible, based on the information that you’ve posted, hathaway, that this is one of them. That he went ahead just to prove to you that he could. OTOH, it’s also possible that the heat of the moment took over, and it took “a few minutes” for what you were saying to register, and another unmeasured period of time for him to react and stop himself.
As you said, without his input it’s impossible to really tell.
Heh. It was about as spirited as my “thinly veiled” attack; and just as mine wasn’t really directed at Try as I might, yours wasn’t at me. I just kinda think everyone was cranky Friday.
And I understand why: I still think the problem is that we’re mostly just talking past each other. Nothing Try has said has seemed to me to contradict what I’m saying, except for his conclusion, and I’m just having trouble seeing what data is leading to the conclusion. I kind of feel like someone is telling me that zebras are black.
It is, of course, entirely possible that I’m just being dense.
Daniel
Bingo–but I also agree that this is one of the fall in the gray area cases–for all we know, alcohol/other substance was involved, thereby slowing the intellect and the response time–if this is not the case here, specifically, I would bet that if figures into a large number of the gray areas.
I do still call it rape–for the same reasons as KellyM. Should the guy be prosecuted to the full extent of the law etc? Probably not–unless this is a pattern of behavior. Even then, I would think that re-education would be the way to go. But where and how to get such an education? To my mind, that is where society comes in.
Side issue: I would like to know if there is a pattern with him and others like him. Do they “take advantage”(in all to many such circs) and then cry male hormones and sex drive–“I couldn’t stop!”?
How weaselly is that? Not trying to hurt anyone’s feelings here, but seriously, if the man’s “complex” decision making is put on hold d/t desire–isn’t that one step away from a ludicrous excuse like, “the Devil made me do it” or similiar? IOW, he is not going to take responsiblity for his not stopping? So, is it again the woman is to blame for getting herself into this? Is she the gatekeeper for the man’s actions?
Where and when does this guy and others in the type of circumstance own it and say–next time I’m in this, I will respect these boundaries? Does it require maturity? A few years of consistent nookie?
I really am curious–I’m not trying to be snide.
At least I know I was cranky on Friday.
Besides, zebras are pink.
No, no, no. You’re new here, so you don’t know the joke, but trust me. It’s unicorns that are pink. And invisible, but that’s a matter of faith. 
It’s a running bit from innumerable threads on the merits or lack of merits of religion over in Great Debates.
I really popped in to say I’ve enjoyed what you’ve written and I hope you’ll stick around.
CJ
thanks. i appreciate it. (BTW, i’ve seen the invisible pink unicorn argument before on the website with the same name, I’m not surprised that rhetorical device is well argued here.)
end hijack.
Oh, I shouldn’t, but I am laughing at that, tdn. If only everything was that clear, hey? “Warning, the cigarette you are about to smoke is the cigarette that for you will trigger cancer.” Hmm!
eleanorigby, it probably is a conscious pattern with some people, probably of both genders, too, I bet. Because this is more a matter of manipulation on the lower end, with forced contact being on the higher end.
Maureen, reading this thread led me to consider my own experiences and curiosity brought me back here with that thought in tow. Very impressive thread; it’s led me to quite a bit of thinking on the topic.
Oh, and KellyM, thank you for your opinion. “That was sex initiated without consent and continued after the lack of consent was made absolutely clear, and that makes it rape.” You’re absolutely right that consent was specifically denied. Funny, because it was someone I was actively intimate with, that makes it grey to me. It probably shouldn’t. If he had kept at it until he was done, I don’t know that I would use “rape” or “sexual assault” to describe what happened, but it definitely wouldn’t be grey in my mind anymore. I probably sound silly here but I’m still learning from everyone, and learning about myself even as I type!
It took place in Vermont, and the reason it was discontinued was because the security guards, who were required to be present, were extremely uncomfortable with what they were hearing. Like they were having nightmares and stuff.
Having said that, I have now posted everything I know about it. No cites, unfortunately. Everything I know I heard from my girlfriend, who is a psychologist that has done a good bit of research into this and related topics.
Soory I can’t be of more help.
This is probably grossly inappropriate for Pit, but I wanted to say thank you to all who participated in this thread. I feel like we accomplished some enlightment on both sides–a bb at it’s best!
OK, warm fuzzy moment over.
Hmm, better put a fuck in here somewhere–it is the Pit and all…
I, too, would like to fucking thank all you kind fucks for fucking enlightening me and for engaging in a fucking civil fucking dabate.
Ya asshats.
Ya know, it’s all nice and shmoopy that you guys are giving virtual hugs and kisses and lovies in here, but please lets not forget the true purpose of this thread:
To point out that prisoner6655321 is an idiot. A big, dumb one.