Oops! My ADD kicking in again…(joke)
And yes, he is an idiot–and I feel sorry for him. What would it be like to be him?
The mind boggles.
Wowbager: “prisoner?”
prisoner6655321: “yeah…”
“prisoner…6655321?”
“that’s me…”
“You’re an idiot. a complete kneebiter. I just thought you should know that before this thread ends.”
Agreed. Focus, people!
Okay, allow me to be the second person who offers to pay your membership. In fact, I’ll fight alice for it. We can’t let a Douglas Adams fan get away.
And prisoner? You’re an idiot. A small minded ignorant clueless dickless sad human being who will probably never evolve beyond the tiny little world that occupies the center of your head. So much the better for the rest of us.
No apologies necessary, and thank you for sharing what information you do have.
You know what? For all your smug self-satisfied rhetoric, damn you for thinking that a post like this would change prisoner’s mind or improve the world in any way. Admit it: this post serves no purpose other than to buff your ego: you made it as part of a pile on, and not in any serious attempt to change prisoner’s mind (and hence improve the world). Such a boring lack of perspective is no credit to you at all, even if prisoner doesn’t have much to brag about.
Yep. Sure did. So sorry, you’re quite right.
In fact, it probably totally negates every worthwhile post I made in this thread just by reiterating something I said clear back on page one. And two.
Feel better now?
Sorry for jumping into this thread when there’s already a discussion in full swing, but I just had to comment on this.
This may be ‘normal’, this may be ‘the game’, and if so, it’s freakin’ bullshit. Look, no slur against women, but come the fuck on! I’ve been raised to have respect for women, and to understand that no means no. So for Goddess’ sake, if you use the word no, mean it!
How does engaging in deceptive communication help anybody? Especially if guys get the idea that if a woman says no, the correct thing to do is keep trying. If a woman wants sex and wants to make sure her boundaries are respected, it makes much more sense, from my perspective, for her to be open and honest and ask that her boundaries be respected, rather than playing some weird game.
I mean, jesus, what do you expect from guys? We’re supposed to be mind readers and know that ‘no’ means “yeah, push just a little bit more. And a little bit more. And a little bit more, and then you’ll get some.”
I mean, it’s different if you’re dating someone and they respond that they’re ‘not in the mood’ and you have to seduce them a bit. That’s part of something that, yes, seems normal and healthy.
But if a guy meets a girl and propositions her, and she says no, and he keeps asking… well, to my mind that’s just rude.
I dunno… just my two cents, do as you will.
I’d just like to add that, for me at least, respecting boundaries is the same as listening when a girl says “no”. I give her the respect necessary to assume that she’s being truthful with me and her desires. Tell me no, and I assume you mean no. And from that point on, I won’t be bothering you with sexual advances. If, however, what you want are more sexual advances, there are far better ways to flirt than telling me that you’re not interested.
NB: Yes, I am just a dumb guy. But I’m tryin’ my best here, ya know? So throw me a bone and only say no if you mean it!
~walks off muttering~
Yeah, I have to agree with you there, Finn.
Thing is, nobody likes games (except for the sick and twisted few). Nobody likes them, and nobody wants to play them. But the sad fact is, games are part of the dating process. We all play them in spite of ourselves. They’re hardwired into us.
Look to the animal kingdom. Most animals don’t just start copulating at random. (Bonobo monkies aside.) They often have elaborate rituals dictating how mating is going to proceed. We’re not much different. Might as well get used to it.
And look at the bright side – at least we aren’t restricted to a mating season.
Finn, I agree to an extent with what you’re saying, but I think (please correct me if I’m wrong, tdn) that we are not talking about casual acquaintances or a first date here…these are two people in a relationship. The lines are a bit more blurry (remember the blurry line we talked about?). And, tdn consistently asked “is this alright?” “can I do this?” The woman at any time could have said no, and he would have stopped.
And, no, we shouldn’t play those games. But, like he said, it’s part of what we as human beings do. Not all of us are born mature and knowing what we should and should not do when it comes to sexual mores.
Unfortunately, with all the conflicting signals people receive while growing up, it’s amazing the species has continued at all. 
Or that there’s such a thing that’s considered “normal.” We’re so paranoid about the subject, we can’t even agree on the best way to educate our kids on the subject, and for some reason religion has even managed to make its way into the bedroom.
Bah! When I want some sex, I look at my SO and say “Tonight, I would like some fried chicken, and some sex - hold the chicken!” There is little, if any confusion.
However, my SO appreciates a woman who knows what she wants. 
First off, yay for Alice!
Eh… courtship is a process, and to some degree biological. But that still doesn’t mean that women should start using no to mean yes, or keep it up if they have been. I mean… aren’t the dangers of that position evident? Regardless of the problems it poses to honest communication?
Sometimes, I think that’d be kinda neat. Get two months off from work, rutting in the streets, mad orgies in central park…
Ahhhh, I thought we were talking about new folks and/or first date sorta things.
I know all couples have their means of communication, and yeah, I may be dumb, but even I know that sometimes “I’m not in the mood…” is followed by the tacit statement “…unless you start kissing my neck and hold me in your arms and…”
But in such a case, it presupposes a level of communication and intimacy, and knoweldge, that new relationships simply don’t have. As a (dumb) guy, it takes me a while to get to know a woman and be able to intuit her mental state. I, for one, would never be willing to take the risk that I was wrong with a new person and take ‘no’ as ‘yes keep pushing’. So, I mean, I’m not goddess’ gift to women, but if some girl wanted some hot sweaty monkey sex with me, and told me no… well… no monkey sex (and isn’t that a damn shame?).
No, I was drunk.
(not really, but that’s a fun thing to say. However, I don’t remember what blurry lines you’re referring to.)
I understand that, but even if it’s not even close to rape, with a new lover/friend/whatever, I’d view that as tremendously rude and thus not do it. If, for instance, I ask a girl to sit next to me and snuggle a bit, and she responds that she’s not interested, I think it’d be horribly rude of me to keep asking her. “Well, how about if I just put my hand on your shoulder? Well, how about now if I just…”
For me, no means no, and it’s the end of the ballgame.
True enough, and I guess a part of my frustration is that, I like sex. A whole bunch. And if there was a chance of having a ready and willing women who was interested, but told me no as part of some game and we never ended up hooking up… well… to me that sucks.
Honesty and communication are good, almost always. And, of course, this particular game of no-meaning-yes-sometimes is very, very, very dangerous for women.
Nawwwwww. Having been a hormonal teenage guy, I can tell you that mixed signals or not, you’ll keep trying till you find someone who’ll get nekkid with ya.
Ugggg… don’t even get me started on this
Apologies in advance for coloring this. Since I am the pitted one, I want my first response to be easy to find.
You know, this whole situation got way out of hand. I would have responded after a couple of replies, but by the time I discovered this discussion, the argument was already too hot. And at 9 pages, you clearly didn’t need me involved. Isn’t it pretty clear that since as Left Hand of Dorkness so cleverly mentioned many of you are are calling a zebra black (or white), isn’t it possible that your problem with me is similar? For the record, I never intended to give the indication that I blame the victim for their rape. I only meant that a woman has the responsibility to minimize the chances that she will be targeted for rape. I know that sometimes it’s inevitable. But why take chances with your life? I apologize to the group for appearing to promote the idea that she shares even the slightest bit of blame for being a rape victim. That was a mistake and it seems to me that this percentage thing is central to your problem with me. However, I don’t understand how many of you could hold the same opinion as me and still call me an idiot¹. Surely, you must have wondered that I must mean that the woman has responsibility, yet is not to be blamed. If you didn’t think for even one second that I might believe what you believe, then to those that believe that the woman has a responsibility to protect herself, I’m sorry for calling you an idiot just now. I don’t mean to say that you think the woman is to blame. My intention is to agree with YOU, not to say you agree with what you thought I believed. But if you did for one second think that I just MIGHT think that she is blameless… if you attacked me instead of asking the group the question that maybe I didn’t MEAN that she’s to blame, you are a coward for joining in with the stoning instead of sticking up for me. YOU COWARDS!
Now I didn’t realize that I was mixing blame and responsibility. And I didn’t realize that using the percentages in the way that I did reduced the blame for the rapist. In fact it shifted 5% of the blame to the woman, and that wasn’t my intention. I simply meant that the way the woman dresses is about 5% of the responsibility in protecting herself from rape. Maybe it’s 1%. I don’t know the exact number. It’s really a kind of semantics. Again, with the semantic argument here on SDMB. Seems like every single time we cross swords on an issue, it’s because of semantics. And a lot of times, you know what I mean, but you only want to feel superior to someone. At least that’s how I feel, since that has to be the reason you would attack someone when they believe something that you agree with. And if your reply to that is something like, “don’t you DARE compare me to yourself you masogonistic rapist asshole!” then you again are putting words in my mouth, and you are being optuse because you want to argue and feel superior. If you really are proud of who you are, then there’s no need to attack someone for having an opinion when that person could have the same opinion as you. Are you that insecure? Please stop with the semantic arguments people. They are just a waste of everybody’s time and they fill up the board with junk. If you think someone here could mean something you agree with and maybe is having a hard time finding the proper words, look at their words from that perspective. Believe me, it would save us a lot of trouble. And it really would make this board seem a lot more tolerant and kind.
There seems to be some question about the motives behind rape. While it’s probably true that a lot of rapes are about control, I think that a lot of rapes are about sex. And of course the rape doesn’t feel like sex to the victim. But I think a lot of these experts are putting words in the rapist’s minds. I think that a lot of rapes are situations of convenience. No one has discussed the situation in which the rape is not largely premeditated. And I don’t know why, because it’s pretty much the situation in most rapes that I have seen on the screen. A lot of you seem to think that the rapist leaves his house to search for someone to rape, or already has someone in mind he wants to stalk. But that can’t be the case in many rapes. I’m sure the stalker rape happens. But to disregard the convenience rape completely is stubborn ignorance. Not that I mean to mix reality with fantasy, since I cannot fathom the impulse of rape, I have only had even the remotest desire to witness this from the hollywood perspective. And while it’s not popular among psychologists, there has to be some element of truth to the convenience rape. No one here has even responded to the idea. Now it’s been a long time since I watched the Soprano’s episode in which the pychiatrist was raped, but if I remember correctly (I’m sure someone with the DVDs will correct me here), she mentioned that the “knew” from her education that rape was supposed to be about control and dominance, but there was something more to it for her. I’m clearly mixing fantasy with reality, but that’s the only kind of examples I’ve been privy to. And for the most part it’s the kind of rape that most people have been privy to. So I’m not alone here. Like it or not, Hollywood has a lot of sway on the way people think. I’m obviously no expert on rape. But I have a right to my opinion. If this discussion board is the kind of gathering place that attacks someone for having a belief that isn’t popular with experts, then there’s no reason for me being here. I was obviously mistaken in in thinkikng that this board was a welcoming place where people could discuss the issues of the day without being afraid of having an opinion.
¹I don’t understand that insult. Can’t you come up with something a bit more clever here?
Thank you for finally showing up and comparing the real world to Hollywood. Obviously, everything that happens on the screen is an accurate reflection of real life, and the prosecutor, rape counselors, ER nurse, and rape victims in this thread are mistaken about how things really work.
It’s great that you could point this out.
BTW, prisoner6655321, you’re still an idiot. A really big dumb one.
And if you can’t figure out why I’m sticking to that, perhaps you should have actually read this thread, instead of coming in here and posting poorly thought out garbage, you Neanderthalian dotard.
Oh, believe me, I read every word of this discussion. And I agree with everybody. If I’m an idiot for agreeing with you, then you must be an idiot too.
WHATevaaaaaaaaaaar.
Oh, of course I disagree with the people that for no reason at all think I’m an idiot. So now I’m gonna have to come out and ask for some evidence here of that specific insult. How exactly am I an idiot? And what the &*#% does that have to do with rape anyway?
prisoner, yesterday I took the bus to church through a snowstorm to go to a service for Christian unity. Because I was going to church, I was wearing a skirt, albeit a long one, one that came down past the top of my boots. I’m sure that’s in keeping with your conservative values. When I got to the church, I learned the service was cancelled because of the storm, so I turned around and went home, stopping at a grocery store between the church and the bus stop. Now, to get to the church, I walk a block down narrow road (my church is in a decent-sized city). I’ll also walk down that block if I have to use alternate parking because my church’s parking lot is full. Those are the only times I walk down that block. Here’s why I’m telling you this. When I stopped at the grocery store, a man I had never seen before came up to me, said he’d seen me walking down his “alley” and basically tried to chat me up. When I made it clear to him his attention was unwelcome, he got offended. Now, I’ve no way of knowing what he was thinking, but I got the impression that, because I walked alone down a narrow street while wearing a skirt, this man seems to have thought I was fair game. Because of what I was taught, because of attitudes espoused by men like you I felt unsafe and was relieved to see several people waiting at the bus stop. Because of men like you, walking from my car to my church has acquired a risk factor it didn’t have 24 hours ago. Because you say I am responsible for being raped because of the way I dress, because of that incredibly stupid remark you made about women enticing men because of the way we dress, I’m aware that wearing a skirt and walking down a street puts me at a greater risk factor than staying home.
I went to church yesterday, wearing a skirt and reading a newspaper. Minutes later on learning there was to be no service, I turned around and went home. Since the temperature was in the teens, the only things I had showing were my face and hair. Nevertheless, that enticed some fellow enough that he thought I was fair game to be picked up. If he had done anything, I would have been told it was my fault because I walked down a block at 9:00 on a Saturday morning within sight of my church. Nevertheless, there will be idiots like you who say, as you already have, that women entice men with their dress. That’s why we’re calling you an idiot, or at least while I am. On Sunday mornings now, if I can’t park in the church’s parking lot, instead of thinking about the music I’ll be singing or about giving glory to God, I’m going to be thinking about whether it’s worth risking walking down a road which it should be safe for me to walk down.
CJ
By the way, I will be telling the priest about yesterday’s incident, just in case other women have had problems.