Barack and the National Anthem- how do you feel?

[OtakuLoki]

Oh, for the love of little green aliens!

I’ll admit I was taught in school that honoring the National Anthem involved standing erect, hatless, with my hand over my chest. So, I’m with the other posters who have said it’s the “proper” position for a man to take when the Anthem plays.

But, given the way that gender roles are in flux, I don’t see why a man can’t simply do what I was taught was proper for a woman*: standing respectfully at attention, hat (if worn) in place, hand over chest, provided that doesn’t interfere with her attire. The rule for women’s millinery originated, AIUI, back in the days of extravagant headgear. But I’ve seen instances of women on televised events keeping their baseball caps on. That bothers me far more than Obama failing to cover his “heart,” ever could. And both concerns are pretty damned silly. IOW, I really have no issue with someone with their hand over their heart, or not. I think it’s time to update ‘the rules.’

Respectful attention is what I’d expect, and that’s what Obama did. He may have made a tactical error in failing to cover his chest, I won’t argue that. But it’s not going to affect my view of the man’s candidacy one way or the other.

FWIW, another veteran here. Sorry, KlondikeGeoff, I respect your view, but I think that holding to the old ways of showing respect for the flag and the anthem is a battle that’s already been lost. There are just too many other ways I’ve seen the same set of rules violated recently for me to think that there’s any societal consensus to keep the norm you grew up with, and the one I was taught. Frankly, it’s a battle I don’t think worth fighting, if it’s not already lost.

*Before you dismiss that as the maunderings of an elderly man, or that I was taught rules in some backwoods backwater, that was from Eastern Massachusetts in the 1970s. (Middle class, to upper middle class school district, though.)

[Eyebrows_0f_Doom]

So what? I don’t do it either. Who gives a fuck.

[LucyInDisguise]

@SpoilerVirgin

<snip>I swear I tremble for my country when I reflect that her citizens are morons.

I fear you must tremble quite a bit.

And quite frequently …

As do I …

Lucy

[Plynck]

@Dewey Finn

"We are reminded, for instance, of the expanded commander in chief status every time a modern president gets off the White House helicopter and returns the salute of marines.

That is an innovation that was begun by Ronald Reagan. Dwight Eisenhower, a real general, knew that the salute is for the uniform, and as president he was not wearing one. An exchange of salutes was out of order."

@Atomicktom

I’ve never been in the military (so this might be way off), but it’s my understanding that you are only supposed to salute a superior officer. As Commander in Chief, you are the most superior officer. Thus, people salute you, not the other way around.

Fair enough. I thought that the President as Commander In Chief was either returning salutes, or saluting as a sign of respect. I didn’t mean to derail this thread, just wanted to make the point that focusing on Bush’s seeming impropriety was just as petty as whether Obama had his hand on his heart.

[kaylasdad99]

I thought Barn Owl was implying that it’s inappropriate of Bush to be saluting military servicemembers, because he’s Bush (with all of the baggage implied by that).

And that’s a sentiment that I find quite supportable.

[askeptic]

@Atomicktom

I’ve never been in the military (so this might be way off), but it’s my understanding that you are only supposed to salute a superior officer. As Commander in Chief, you are the most superior officer. Thus, people salute you, not the other way around.

As for the OP, I’ll add myself to the list of people who think this is a ridiculous criticism.

Yes, you salute superior officers but when you do it you are supposed to hold the salute until the salute is returned. So when you salute a superior officer he is obligated to return it. We use to punish officers by spacing ourselves out when walking by so they would have to salute repeatedly. No opinion on pres returning military salute. /slight hijack.

[Liberal]

Just incredibly stupid. I don’t do the hand-over-heart thing, but I’m not running for President.

[galt]

Is anyone else upset that Obama didn’t take it upon himself to personally choke the singer that was destroying the national anthem?

[Kitchen_Wench]

@Biggirl

Maybe I’ll start an IMHO about this. I was taught to put my hand over my heart for the Pledge of Allegiance but to stand still for the National Anthem.

For the record, I started this thread in IMHO, Biggirl. I was just wondering how other people feel about it. I didn’t expect to be called “too stupid to vote” or make people think I’m basing my opinion of Obama solely on him not putting his hand over his heart. I’ve liked Obama ever since his speech at the Kerrry/Edwards gig. He gave me goosebumps and made me feel even more patriotic with his words.

Yes, I place my hand over my heart in a very Pavlovian way when I sing the anthem or I’m at an event where it is played. I also get a lump in my throat. It moves me. But that’s just me. Old habits die hard.

I didn’t mean to imply that Obama isn’t patriotic or wouldn’t be a good leader at all. What got me is that everyone else on stage had their hand over their heart & he should have as well. And yes, I scrolled down to see that he’d done it in the past. I’m not keeping score, just making an observation.

All I wanted was to see what other people’s opinions were. And that’s what I got. And more.

I never intended this to land in the pit. I didn’t think something so slight would turn ugly.

[mhendo]

@villa

Even after 12 years in the States, I am still amazed at how widely the national anthem is played here.

Me too.

My own experience at baseball games and the like suggests that a good 50% of Americans, probably more, don’t place their hands over their hearts when the anthem is being played. Hell, about 5-10% spend the whole anthem talking.

Of course, i can only see the people right near me, because when the anthem is played i’m generally sitting down.

As others have said, anyone who would base their assessment of a political candidate on this issue is a moron who doesn’t deserve the vote.

[ZipperJJ]

I’m with Biggirl and Dangerosa (I’ll probably put this in the IMHO thread too) - I went to public school in Ohio for 12 years and was a Girl Scout and never knew I was “supposed” to put my hand over my heart for the national anthem. Granted, 4 of those years in school I was too busy playing the national anthem (while wearing a hat) but I’ve always found it odd that people [baseball players] do it.

I honestly had no clue. I at least take my hat off at the ball game, even tho I’m a girl…

[mhendo]

@Kitchen Wench

I didn’t mean to imply that Obama isn’t patriotic or wouldn’t be a good leader at all. What got me is that everyone else on stage had their hand over their heart & he should have as well. And yes, I scrolled down to see that he’d done it in the past. I’m not keeping score, just making an observation.

All I wanted was to see what other people’s opinions were. And that’s what I got. And more.

I never intended this to land in the pit. I didn’t think something so slight would turn ugly.

You said:

“I don’t mind him not wearing the lapel pin, but this is unacceptable.”

You didn’t say “I would do things differently.” You didn’t say “I was surprised to see that he didn’t put his hand over his heart.” You said “this is unacceptable.”

Unacceptable for what? Why? You say you were just “making an observation,” but when you make such an observation about a Presidential candidate, and state that the candidates actions (or lack thereof) are “unacceptable,” people understandably draw a connection between your observation and your method making decisions about political candidates.

[Kitchen_Wench]

@mhendo

You said:

“I don’t mind him not wearing the lapel pin, but this is unacceptable.”

You didn’t say “I would do things differently.” You didn’t say “I was surprised to see that he didn’t put his hand over his heart.” You said "this is unacceptable."

Unacceptable for what? Why? You say you were just “making an observation,” but when you make such an observation about a Presidential candidate, and state that the candidates actions (or lack thereof) are “unacceptable,” people understandably draw a connection between your observation and your method making decisions about political candidates.

You’re right. I should have made that distinction. I find it unacceptable for a potential presidential candidate to at least go through the motions. I bet there are a lot of people out there who are absolutely outraged at this and have changed their mind on Obama. I’m not one of those people. He’s still head and shoulders above some of the other democrats in my book.

[Shawn1767]

First of all, why “hand over your heart?” What is it supposed to mean? Why is that a symbol of respect? Is it because it’s supposed to be the seat of our emotions? In which case, it’s not. So, what’s the point? Regardless, I work in a school where the students are required to say the Pledge of Allegiance every single day. Things like this become routine with no sincerity attached to it at all. Heck, I doubt that any one of the students could tell me what the pledge meant anyway. It’s just some mindless chore like brushing your teeth that they HAVE to do because the powers that be said so. People who are more concerned with outward appearances seem to lack the sincerity of what they are truly trying to express.

[glee]

@Kitchen Wench

You’re right. I should have made that distinction. I find it unacceptable for a potential presidential candidate to at least go through the motions. I bet there are a lot of people out there who are absolutely outraged at this and have changed their mind on Obama. I’m not one of those people. He’s still head and shoulders above some of the other democrats in my book.

(bolding mine in above)

I find it unacceptable for someone to criticise a politician, then miss out the word ‘not’ in one of their posts. :rolleyes: :smack:

[Biggirl]

I didn’t mean anything by it at all Kitchen Wench, I was genuinely surprised that so many learned that hand over heart was the way to “do” the National Anthem.

As to the question in the OP, well, since I didn’t think it was necessary, I’m not outraged. I don’t even thing it was a “gaffe”.
P.S. The IMHO thread not only is showing how different everyone learned this protocol but that, for some, it’s gender based. Whodathunkit?

[tomndebb]

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone discovered whether Senator Obama refused to place his hand over his heart or whether he was simpy unaware of the practice?

Remember, he spent a fair amount of his youth outside the U.S. (particularly in the lower elementary grades where this stuff is taught). I would not be surprised to discover that he simply missed that little bit of cultural indoctrination.

[Liberal]

Snopes said he sometimes does and sometimes doesn’t. Take that to whatever logical conclusion suits you.

[Sublight]

He’s a flip-flopper!

[ArizonaTeach]

At least he didn’t pronounce “nuclear” strangely. After all, that is a pittable offense.