And speaking of, the chemistry between the two of them was excellent, at every stage of the development of their relationship.
The moment in Razor when the original series Cylons show up, complete with the monotone voice synthesizers and “By your command”, has got to be one of the best bits of fanservice in any TV show I’ve ever seen. I only wish they’d found some way to incorporate Count Iblis and Imperious Leader into the reboot.
Speaking of fanservice, Frank Frazetta did some awesome illustrations of the classic series for TV Guide back in the day;
I suppose I am not very well educated or experienced in religious studies. What are some examples of LDS influence in the original or 2004 series? The thing that struck me the most from a religious point of view is that the polytheists are the good guys and the monotheists are the bad guys. In fact, imposing monotheism on the Colonials is one of the Cylons’ most important motivations.
- Humanity originates from a planet called Kobol; in Mormon mysticism, the planet God lives on is called Kolob
- Twelve tribes fled Kobol for the Colonies, just like how in the book of Mormon ancient Jews flee Israel for the New World
- The Colonies are governed by a president and a Quorum of Twelve, which is also how the leadership of the LDS church is structured
- In the original series the Galactica encounters angelic beings that were once mortal, and it is implied that Starbuck could potentially become one of them, an allusion to a belief in Mormonism that humans could in the afterlife become gods over worlds of their own (which comes up in the remake in a different way)
- Marriage in the original series is eternal and persists into the afterlife
- Count Iblis in the original is based on the Mormon depiction of Satan who sought to grant salvation to all humans if they worshipped him instead of God
That’s just off the top of my head. I’m sure there are more parallels that someone who was actually raised Mormon would recognize.
Not really. It takes until fairly late in the series to explain the Cylons’ true motivations and it involves characters that haven’t been introduced yet.
Episodes: Act of Contrition / You Can’t Go Home Again It’s a two parter, so I’m doing them together.
Overall, quite good. Character driven, good background on the Adama’s relationship with Zak and Kara.
I liked Kara being hard on the potential pilots but coming around and giving them another chance. She was going too hard on the potential pilots and I understand that.
I like that they are still gathering water as much as they can. It’s needed so they have to push it.
Col Tigh gets some characterization as he is by the book. He also has to be a contrast to Adama. The President coming to talk was a great scene.
My quibble is the obvious one, I think. When I first watched it, I thought it was interesting that the cylon raider was a cyborg. Now, though, why? This goes back to not knowing enough about cylon culture. I wonder if knowing later explains this?
I think the 12 humanoid cylons are independent. That is to say that they don’t share thoughts or ideas but can pass them onto the next generation. Are the centurions independent? Or are they part of a machine collective? I don’t remember Caprica that well to know if we got answers there.
Back to to my quibble, then, if it was planned that cylon raiders are alive/cyborgs from the beginning, and this is when humans find out, that’s cool. If cylon raiders were made cyborg so that Starbuck wouldn’t die, then it’s just drama to save a main character. If it becomes relevant or another plot point later, even if not planned but used, that’s fine. If it never comes up or matters, then that’s annoying to me.
Even Starbuck mastering the cylon raider as fast as she did, didn’t bother me as much as it being a cyborg.
Thanks for this! I didn’t know that before.
Yes to all of this about Mary McDonnell and Edward James Olmos. Fabulous! They were awesome. The whole cast is.
As I said, this is a rewatch and I remember the ending. Ha! If it was done now, I’m sure they would point to ChatGPT and the like.
Like this?
The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legends fade to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the third age by some, an Age yet to come, an age long pass, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings or endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.
Probably more “those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.”
I get that and agree with it. I want them to show me that. If fleet Boomer had rubbed her eyes, rubbed the panel, or they had the panel show layered positive and negative results, I would get that something was happening. It could be a great contrast to caprica Boomer if that one stays true to her mission and fleet Boomer sides with the humans. A good story that they made fleet Boomer too human but could also give both sides hope. Instead, we see her stare at a positive result and lie. Then she says to test again, stares, and says it’s positive. I’m not sure how to take that with regard to her character. Did she think she could gain more trust by finding water so changed her mind? What if Crashdown had seen the positive result, would she have had him have an accident? We have been told that the cylons want the humans dead. Not having water would do that so it’s a big frakking deal that fleet Boomer reveals it but I have no idea why. I have no better understanding of Boomer’s mission and her decisions here.
That was actually in the episode with the prisoners. Lee says that if they aren’t following the laws, she’s not president and they aren’t military. I agree with Lee that if they aren’t going to have elections and follow the laws, then stop calling it a democracy.
I’m still watching for Baltar’s 6 to say something that isn’t so vague such that it makes her a cylon, an angel, or in his head. He still confirms and says things, she doesn’t. She says vague statements. I still don’t like Baltar. I think it would be better if they could have done it without her being there. By that, I mean Tricia Helfer in filming. When someone is there in the shot, the actors end up reacting to them, even if they don’t want to. They don’t speak while she speaks. They move around her. Maybe if she wasn’t physically there, and it was James Callis acting it out, it would be better for me.
Thanks for the discussion!
The answer to the above ties into your later comment:
I’ll just say that whether or not it was fully planned at the time the episode is written, the nature of Cylons as living, thinking beings, especially the non humanoid ones, becomes a pretty big point later on. And it ties right back into the cyclical nature of the story/universe (which @vislor of course points out)
Such as the Time Prophet of the Lexx universe, who sees the future from the echoes of the past. 
It’s not exactly an uncommon trope!
There’s an episode in season 3 (I think) about a specific Cylon raider that seems to have a personality of its own, but IIRC it’s considered one of the weaker episodes.
This is one of the things I always loved about Adama and Tigh and their working relationship. I never served in the Navy (or any service, for that matter), but I had always heard that this is the Exec’s role; to be the hard-ass that nobody likes so the Captain (or Commander, in-universe) can be the revered leader, sometimes father-figure. The fact that Tigh seems to relish that role is a bit of a personality flaw, IMHO, but it serves Adama pretty well.
For me it did look like they were showing the conflict in the way she kept looking at the panel like she was trying to unsee it. At least for me, in the first viewing and a recent subsequent one, I could feel the tension between two different directives in her especially since we are told in the intro that some cylons may not know who they are. It looked like kind of HAL situation where two directives were directly in conflict and it caused it to malfunction.
//i\\
I have and that’s sort of right. The XO is generally the primary disciplinarian above your section head (AirBoss (on a carrier), CHENG, etc) who is above your Lead Petty Officer, Chief, and Division Officer (in that order from bottom to top), but it’s more “the CO has more important shit to do” and “when you do have to see the Captain, you are in seriously deep shit” than hard-ass for the sake of being hard-ass. My XO was a strict guy, but if you were doing great was the first one in with a compliment. He also got to announce the extra days off, steel beach picnics, etc. Had the ability to laugh at himself and generally was an all-around reasonable guy. The general impression was that he was on a leadership track. I would gladly have served under him as CO.
I’m glad it worked for you. It didn’t work for me. I don’t know if it was the writing, acting, or direction but the whole scene is flat to me. As I said, I think I got no clues as to what Boomer was thinking or what was happening.
We already know that they have resurrection and we have seen that multiple humanoid cylons working with the cylons exist at the same time. (I don’t know if the Final Five have multiples or are connected to the resurrection ship.) Would the ones that don’t like humans, who seem to be in charge, deny a resurrection, or sharing of knowledge and feelings, if they were too “corrupted” with humanity? What does happen to them when all of these different feelings and experiences come together? Do they pick based on mission?
As several pointed out, six’s back glowed in the mini series but never again. Boomer had to have gone through military training, so many physicals which should have revealed physiological differences. We only see grown up humanoid cylons but is that how they start? If so, how did they insert Boomer, and others, into the military?
I’m lamenting how much could be explored with the cylons if we had been given a look at them instead of trying to wrap them in a mystery. How much more surprise could we have that fleet Boomer did say water was found? Then we could want to see her join humanity and we are shown they can learn and change.
I know I’m yelling into the wind because the series is done and the showrunner had no plan. Maybe some of what I want comes up later, I don’t remember. I’m nit picking because of how much better it could have been with a plan.
We did get more poker in the episodes and it again came down between Starbuck and Baltar. She was obviously on tilt, so I can’t fault him winning. What I can fault is that you can’t call and then raise. “I see your X bet and raise Y.” That’s a call but again, drama.
I think the fact that we are still watching it and discussing it twenty years later means it’s a good show! Thanks for the discussion!
The answer is yes.
Arguably the whole point of the series (at least as they decided to tell it by the end since I share some of your doubts about the showrunners) is that the cylons are no different from humans.
They too will destroy each other over their differences in beliefs, claiming they are acting for the greater good the whole time. They will break their beliefs the moment it becomes expedient to do so, despite said contradictions. IE the greatest strength and weakness of the cylons is their own humanity.
Which brings us right back to the cycles.
What always made the series something of a bummer to ME, is that as with any cyclical universe, there’s no hint that there will ever be a resolution. You may or may not have free will (there’s another one that makes me unhappy) over some of the elements of your personal story, but in the end, it’s all going to repeat.
Heck, even King gave some hope for the Gunslinger.
I tend to assume though, that the various “interventions” that are outside the scope of the direct actions of Human/Cylon technology are supposed to hint that there are indeed greater forces out there, that keep trying to give new chances, but the fact that there are at least 3 cycles without significant change and are working on the fourth… well… not much hope.
The known cycles being: Kobol, “Earth”, The Colonies (the series in question), with our Earth theoretically being the fourth.
Episode: Litmus
I generally like courtroom scenes in my scifi for a change of pace. Measure of a Man is still one of my top TNG episodes. (I’m watching on Prime and they compared it to The Drumhead, which was an episode Moore oversaw.)
I’m not sure why Adama called it a witch hunt and shut down the tribunal. The only one that had been accused of anything was Socinus and Adama didn’t reverse that. Further, Socinus did lie. It feels like they were rushed for time and wrapped it up quickly when five more minutes of dialog would have helped.
I’m back to questioning if Fleet Boomer knows what they are or not. I guess it depends what she does next.
Chief Tyrol should relook at things that happened around Boomer. I will see if that happens. Again, I don’t remember the details.
Random future thoughts for this episode. Tigh and Tyrol end up being Final Five. I’m confused on that based on character age. I would think the Final Five would be the same age. Indeed, if we are on a cyclical pattern, and the cylons didn’t exist before the cylon war of forty years ago, how was Tigh, who is older than the war, put into place?
I’m confused about the events on “Cylon Occupied Caprica.” That is how I am shown it but since the narration also claims the Cylons have a plan, I can call it an unreliable narrator. Why have they occupied it? Why watch Helo?
At the moment, the Caprica scenes seem to me to be all for drama. I mean, first, it’s shot such that the humanoid cylons are looking at Helo while being backlit for effect! He never even slightly looked up to see them there? Or see them later when he’s helping Boomer? Second, the cylon should have killed Helo easily. I hope he realizes that. Third, again, some dialog explaining what they are doing would have gone far here, instead of six musing if Boomer got Helo to fall in love with her.
Baltar was almost okay. Visiting Starbuck, giving her a gift, and not making the bombing about him seem out of character. Maybe I’m being too harsh on him, maybe I have him pegged wrong, or the events have changed him. Again, I think if we could see an outside look at him and what he does, slam himself against a wall, it would also give a different perspective to many. Maybe the writers. Equally, though, his six only pushes him to do the cylon detector. Let’s say that she is an angel, and the angel wants to protect humanity. Having a cylon detector would help with that.
Despite my nit picking, I do enjoy it. I have these questions but I enjoy it and hope that the next episode reveals more. Similar to when I first watched it.
Thanks for the discussion!
Personally, I found Early Baltar (barely) tolerable, when he was just an asshole on his own behalf. But later on, when he did the whole Cult of God Wants Everyone to be Assholes, that’s when I really started to root for him to die a horrible death.
The Cylons (most of them, anyway) believe that being able to reproduce is their next step towards becoming human. They haven’t been able to reproduce amongst themselves, so they believe that adding a Colonial’s DNA into the mix will make it possible.
The Cylons can infiltrate any computer system. I assume they just planted documents in the Colonial databases indicating that Saul Tigh was born at such-and-such a place and served in the war before he was planted on the civilian cargo ship where he met Bill Adama. IIRC, Number One (who resents the Five for giving the Eight the same limitations as biological humans) arranged for them all to be put in positions where they’d likely survive the genocide of mankind, as part of his revenge against them.
Episode Six Degrees of Separation
I think we go from one of the better episodes to one of the worst. This is two people on the same keyboard bad.
OMG, the disc! They understand wheels. No reason for an octagon disc. Once again, it’s the zoom, enhance, and resolve. I mean, it ended up a fake but still made no sense. Then Baltar trying to corrupt it made no sense! Hit the keyboard and hope it goes away? Erase it? They probably had backups by that point not to mention just getting the images/video from the disc again.
I don’t like mystery religions in my fiction. When I’m watching/reading something, I want it to have answers for me eventually. In his head, six disappears with Godfrey’s appearance and reappears when Godfrey disappears. Maybe an angel? Maybe the only thing their vague writing will allow them. As an interesting point, closed captioning doesn’t call her Godfrey but Six.
The discrepancies in tech get to me in this episode. Even if Galactica has no networked computers, some computers, like a lab, could be advanced. Tech to fix vipers? If the chief can work on Apollo’s Mark VII, wouldn’t that require the latest tech? Then, cylons have the ability to make humanoid replicants, robot cylons that can have a hand or a gun, but they don’t have frakking scanners to find humans? Helo believes this?? We have seen cylon raiders lock on and fire multiple missiles to destroy a squad of vipers but they can’t find body heat?
Speaking of cylon raiders, treat it like a horse? A dog? What?? I would want the best AI on a ship so that it can make decisions in combat, not that it blindly follows a program. That also makes no sense to me.
The true cylon detector is for someone to have sex with them and someone else watches their spines! Bringing that into the series brings all of the previous questions back up. How is something that can glow not detected? What other differences are there and why can’t they be detected?
I remember that being the case as well. Of course, I don’t like him now, so I’m expecting the cult times to be worse.
ETA:
Interesting. Okay, thanks! I do remember that a bit. I wonder if they knew that at this point? Again, wouldn’t the cylons watching then talk about it from that standpoint? Should there be dialog that they tried to take it from captives but now wonder if it has to be willing? I mean, even now, we don’t need that, biologically speaking, so again as I talk that out, it makes no sense to me. This is the kind of mystery writing that Lost did that I hate. They either don’t know, so have to be vague, or want them to a mystery, when it makes no sense. When they think it’s only themselves, why aren’t they talking directly?
Thanks for the discussion!
I vaguely remember them saying they experimented with captives and weren’t successful, and decided that maybe love was the missing ingredient. Humans don’t need to be in love to reproduce, but maybe for female Cylons it helps - the only other Cylon pregnancy we see in the series is when Tigh falls in love with Caprica Six after Ellen “dies”.
I was editing mine when Smapti responded, which is why his quote of mine is different.
The science should be there to do this. I don’t understand it but it should be understood, I would think.
Thanks for the discussion!
I’d guess that the thing that needs to be loved in this equation is the baby, not the partner. It doesn’t make a whole lot more scientific sense, but it does make a bit more poetic sense.