[QUOTE=Miller]
That’s not really a spoiler. Even if Tigh is feeding her disinformation, she’s still betraying the resistance. When she no longer is a useful conduit for passing bad info to the Cylons, Tigh is likely to have some very harsh words with Ellen.
Maybe some harsh bullets, too.
[/QUOTE]
It ain’t that big of a deal I guess. TV Guide, TV Schmuide. If they said “Colonials find Earth” it’d probably turn out they meant “Colonials find (a reference in a book to) Earth.”
[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Oh see, that’s a big part of what I pinged on. What’s with Boomer giving Anders a big hug like they’re old long lost friends? Sure they hung out a bit back on Caprica, but that hug made me think this Boomer’s overdoing it. Anders looked a bit “what the…?” himself.
[/QUOTE]
“Hung out a bit on Caprica” seems a poor description of Boomer betraying the Cylons to steal a heavy Raider so that Anders and all his gang could escape back to the Fleet. And Boomer has about two friends in the whole fleet – Adama and her husband – so she’s likely to be very happy to see anyone that might have reason to believe her when she says she’s on their side.
And Blanders always looks a bit “what the…?”, IMO.
Seriously dude: it’s the Tvguide summary and it was in a spoilerbox. I think my conscience is clear. It’s not exactly brain surgery to figure that some issue we saw raised in one episode is going to be delt with sooner or later: the Tvguide just shows that it’s sooner. Nothing about it rules out Tigh’s knowledge either: just pegs when the confrontation is going to come down.
Lol, yes, unfortunately. I KNEW Kara was going to end up with a big dumb lug. 
Another random question: has anyone explained why FTL transport cannot be used as a weapon? i.e. hook up a FTL engine to a guidance system, calculate where a basestar is or is going to be, launch it into FTL-space and have it appear inside the basestar. BOOM!!! I’ve never really understood why this wasn’t an ultimate-weapon in Star Trek either. Is targeting the exact location where something comes out of FTL too hard?
[QUOTE=Apos]
Another random question: has anyone explained why FTL transport cannot be used as a weapon?
[/QUOTE]
I’ve posted the question several times, “What are they calculating for a jump? Mathematical probabliity?”
We don’t know how the thing works.
Maybe it’s like anti missile defense for the US. It should be easy to hit an incoming missile, they are after all ballistic, traveling in a parabola. But they have such a high velocity.
[QUOTE=Apos]
Seriously dude: it’s the Tvguide summary and it was in a spoilerbox. I think my conscience is clear. It’s not exactly brain surgery to figure that some issue we saw raised in one episode is going to be delt with sooner or later: the Tvguide just shows that it’s sooner. Nothing about it rules out Tigh’s knowledge either: just pegs when the confrontation is going to come down.
[/quote]
Not that big of a deal.
Not only that, but why do Basestars always jump in just far enough away for DRAIDIS to pick them up and the fleet has just enough time to jump away? Or launch fighters. Or whatever. Surely they could jump right into the middle of the fleet and blast everything almost instantly.
I could believe some gobbledy-goop about difficult & dangerous calculations but c’mon. This episode two Raptors jumped into an atmosphere mere meters above the ground. What happened to “hey, you can’t jump in this close to a planet, you might end up in a mountain!”
Oh well. This is Boomer. She’s really good at jump calcs.
[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Oh well. This is Boomer. She’s really good at jump calcs.
[/QUOTE]
but she sucks at landings… 
Yeah good point. That’s WAY harder to calculate since you’d have to take gravitational effects into account. Makes it pretty hard to argue that exact calculations are a problem.
Suffice to say, if I was alive in the Battlestar universe, I could kick the Cylons from one side of the galaxy to the other by exploiting all their technology plotholes.
Like Cylon downloading: provided it’s not simply magic, it must operate on some detectable, interceptible frequency. It can’t be jammed? You can’t prevent it from taking place by instantly incinerating the head? Another episode claimed that burning their tissues revealed silcon elements. So why nothave everyone donate some flesh, burn it, and test for silicon? Why the elaborate nuclear weapon-powered testing device?
[QUOTE=Cervaise]
Toward the end of season two, Adama and Sharon are talking about trust. Sharon wants to know how many times she has to save the fleet before Adama will trust her. Adama responds by asking point blank: Will you identify the remaining unknown Cylons among us? And she answers: No. Which thereby, I would have thought, provides a ground rule by which she can earn his trust.
That this has not been revisited since then, or discussed in the context of his apparent re-embrace of her as an officer, is probably the most significant undigested lump of perplexity in how and why he apparently changed his mind on the subject.
[/QUOTE]
Very good question really. The first Sharon would have taken an oath upon joining the military, and taken another oath upon becoming an Officer. But she was basically brainwashed and didn’t know she was a Cylon.
Helo’s Sharon shares memories with the other one, but has never actually raised her right hand and sworn an oath to obey, etc.
Now she has. I respect Adama for not immediately asking, “who are the hidden Cylons?”
But what will Sharon do if she encounters a hidden Cylon?
Another good point. This show is so good that you’re willing to overlook these problems, but sometimes you get the sense that they didn’t plan things out too far ahead or worry about covering logcal problems like this.
I’m having a bit of trouble with the whole premise now. There are only about 40,000 humans. About the population of Hoboken, NJ or two modern infantry divisions. How hard should that be for the Cylons to police?
And are the Cylons not familiar with human history (assuming the Colonies have had similar wars to ours with similar insurgencies )?
And suicide bombing might not be the best tactic for the last 40,000 humans in the universe.
Not that many Cylons are on the planet. They may be just a mop-up detail while most of them work on reshaping Caprica and the other colonies’ infrastructures to their likings, but while the mopup job is a lower priority. Or they may be a sort of fringe cult, or utopian ideologues, trying to found a religious community of sorts where humanity will be purified and redeemed - alongside, not permanently subordinate to, the Cylons who consider themselves as sinners too. Perhaps the other 5 models aren’t as susceptible to such introspection and aren’t represented in the cult?
The Cylon model in charge of war planning though they could hold New Capica with fewer troops than suggested by eir advisors. E was wrong. Does that remind anybody of anything?
[QUOTE=alphaboi867]
The Cylon model in charge of war planning though they could hold New Capica with fewer troops than suggested by eir advisors. E was wrong. Does that remind anybody of anything?
[/QUOTE]
I assume you’re talking about the unfortunate events on Sagittaron. You really shouldn’t listen to Tom Zarek. He wants you to think the Cylon occupation of New Caprica is analogous to the Colonial government’s efforts to restore freedom and democracy to all peace-loving Sagittarons, but it’s not the same thing at all. Sagittaron was never in danger of the Colonial government nuking it out of existence. Zarek and his fanatical young followers could bomb government buildings all they want.
The Cylons however, really will exterminate humanity if you push them too far.
I finally saw this last night. Almost wet my pants in two or three places. Good stuff. Lots of thoughts on this one:
When the newly free Sharon Agathon discovers that Adama swiped her kid, he’s going to start feeling the guilt. After which he can point out that she never named the Cylons who infiltrated the fleet. They can discuss it while sipping tea and sharing a side order of cold revenge. Oh yeah. Bring the guilt, baby.
By the way, are there Cylons still hidden amongst the New Cap population?
Cap-6 vs. Xena == “First Cylon-on-Cylon violence”? …What about the first scene in the pilot, where a basestar blows apart Armistice Station? Or when Caprica-Boomer shoots a Six and rescues Helo in episode one?
Cylons are disgusted by suicide bombers now, when it’s hurting them - but they were apparently happy to use them before, on the Galactica. Personally, I never once thought that Ron Moore was playing the suicide bombers theme as a “good guy tactic”. It seems to me that he’s demonstrating just how desparate the situation is. I also seem to remember negative reviews from both the Human and Cylon characters on this one. Speculation: since it’s incredibly futile to fight a war of attrition when your entire civilization consists of fewer than 50,000 people huddled close together, there will be consequences of this decision later on in safer times.
Are there copies of Kacey? Can they be grown in an assembly line like a Cylon, or do they need to use up another one of Starbuck’s eggs? (When Kacey fell down the stairs, I had to hit the pause button and check on my own daughters, who were thankfully still healthy and asleep in their beds.)
I liked the fat Apollo bit, from a storytelling perspective. It really adds a fragile humanity to his character. The makeup and clever use of body doubles was pretty convincing IMHO.
I was holding out for the possibility that Baltar was a closet Cylon, perhaps The Cylon…but nope, after this episode, he probably isn’t. Ellen’s probably not a Cylon. Calley’s not a Cylon. Gaeta’s still a possibility. Maybe Dualla.
alphaboi867: [homer]Mmmmmm, Raider meat… drool[/homer] tee hee hee hee
The issue of trust, and “Bad” Boomer at the rendezvous: didn’t she come planetside with two raptors? Presumably, there’d be some corroborating evidence that she’s the one from Galactica: support crew, equipment, Apollo’s bon-bons, etc. At any rate, I’m sure Ellen Tigh betrayed them, Saul still trusts her blindly (ouch), and I think we can trust Boomer. When she caused trouble before, Ron had the decency to show the audience that she was doing it. Today’s question really is:
…Do I trust Ron?
[QUOTE=Subway Prophet]
Cap-6 vs. Xena == “First Cylon-on-Cylon violence”? …What about the first scene in the pilot, where a basestar blows apart Armistice Station? Or when Caprica-Boomer shoots a Six and rescues Helo in episode one?
[/QUOTE]
Good memory, but I don’t think either of these counts. Both deaths are fully-aware sacrifices by the model in question.
The Six on Armistice Station knew it was about to get destroyed, which of course raises the question of why she bothered to board. What exactly did she accomplish? It’s not like she was the first to “know” a human; other Cylons had been running around the Colonies for months by that point. Maybe she was just curious, and pulled rank, or whatever the Cylon equivalent might be, for an opportunity to meet a human for herself. Her question, “Are you alive?” suggests that this might be her motivation.
In the first episode, that Six knew she was going to get shot by the Eight when she went up to Helo; it was a fake rescue to get Helo to run off with the Eight.
A better exception would be at the end of season one. Remember when Helo and Sharon-Eight were sneaking around the complex to steal a Raider? Helo was stunned to see another Eight, and then Sharon-Eight shot her. Maybe the Cylons think a different human killed that one, since that Eight was looking at Helo when Sharon-Eight shot her from a different, possibly unseen, angle.
I’m also going to agree that Ron Moore is absolutely not trying to argue any sort of justification for suicide bombing as a legitimate tactic in war. This show has never been that simple-minded. Rather, it’s being presented as a natural consequence of the desperation of the situation, as something that happens, for good or bad, nothing more or less. And it spreads out its characters along the spectrum of agreement and disagreement. Tigh is fighting a war, with a rational, plausible motive (keeping the toasters distracted will make Adama’s rescue attempt easier), using the only tactics he has available to him. Duck was irrationally distraught. Roslin hates the Cylons but cannot bring herself to accept the death of innocents. The Cylons themselves are hypocrites for condemning the tactic, since (as Mr. Prophet so astutely observes) they themselves used a suicide bomber back in season one, a reminder of which would no doubt piss them off to no end. Tyrol is horrified by the tactic but goes along with it because he doesn’t really have any other options, though he argues for limits to its application. Even Baltar, unquestionably one of the show’s villains, gets to score a small but unambiguous moral victory at the end of his scene with Roslin, when he challenges her unwillingness to face the implications of defending the resistance in their latest turn of strategy. And so on.
Anyone who tries to find any kind of moral absolutes in any of this is simplifying the show’s point of view and bringing their own prejudices to the debate table. The genius of the show is not that it precisely mirrors our own world, allowing us to rest comfortably with the “sides” we’ve already chosen, but that it reflects our world in a scrambled fashion, placing fully-drawn characters all over the ideological map, exposing our unacknowledged biases and forcing us to detach our likes and dislikes of the characters as people in order to examine their beliefs and choices and decide for ourselves where our own individual moral boundaries fall. None of this is new; recall how Starbuck defended Admiral Cain in her eulogy at the end of “Resurrection Ship.” Right? Wrong? Irrelevant. Human.
As I watched the premiere, my viewing companion and I barked and shouted in glee, knowing that the show was going to piss people off to no end, because it associates so-called “good guys” with behaviors we commonly attach to our so-called “enemies.” Galactica rejects those black-and-white categories, and that kind of simplification does the show a grave disservice.
None of this says suicide bombing is “right,” whatever that means, and to assert that the show is arguing such a view, or taking the side of Muslim extremists who oppose American values, is missing the point entirely.
Once again: best frakkin’ show on television.
[QUOTE=Cervaise]
Remember when Helo and Sharon-Eight were sneaking around the complex to steal a Raider? Helo was stunned to see another Eight, and then Sharon-Eight shot her. Maybe the Cylons think a different human killed that one, since that Eight was looking at Helo when Sharon-Eight shot her from a different, possibly unseen, angle.
[/QUOTE]
I just thought of another one - when Starbuck was rescued from the Cylon breeding farm on Caprica, the actual rescue were performed by Cap-Boomer flying a Cylon heavy raider. In that scene, she blows away several cenutrions. Not quite the same as punching holes in meatbags, but still. It was a Cylon craft, most likely piloted by a Cylon. I think it’s safe to assume the Cylons figured it out.
It might be an oversight on Ron’s behalf, but I like to think this helps to highlight the great Cylon hypocracy - that in exercising selective memory and giving in to passions and bad logic during the heat of the moment, they’re becoming that which they seek to destroy.
[QUOTE=Subway Prophet]
It might be an oversight on Ron’s behalf, but I like to think this helps to highlight the great Cylon hypocracy - that in exercising selective memory and giving in to passions and bad logic during the heat of the moment, they’re becoming that which they seek to destroy.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, they’re highlighting the hypocracy of the Cylon position throughout. But that’s not the point as to why Caprica!Six keeps getting referred to as the first Cylon-on-Cylon violence.
The other Cylons refer to that because that’s how she became a Cylon “celebrity” – which, in turn, allowed her to change the Cylon agenda. It doesn’t matter that she might not have been the first to murder another Cylon; she’s the poster child for Cylons murdering Cylons. The other Cylons are showing a whole lot of ugly emotions toward Caprica!Six, and so every chance they get they throw back in her face just what she’s famous for.
[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Oh see, that’s a big part of what I pinged on. What’s with Boomer giving Anders a big hug like they’re old long lost friends? Sure they hung out a bit back on Caprica, but that hug made me think this Boomer’s overdoing it. Anders looked a bit “what the…?” himself.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe she whispered something to him. Like, “We’re being watched.”
[QUOTE=Subway Prophet]
Cylons are disgusted by suicide bombers now, when it’s hurting them - but they were apparently happy to use them before, on the Galactica.
[/QUOTE]
It’s not really a suicide bombing if you wake up in a tank full of snot a short time later. It’s kind of like…a commute. Time wasted, sure, but it’s all part of doing the job.
-Joe
[QUOTE=Merijeek]
It’s not really a suicide bombing if you wake up in a tank full of snot a short time later. It’s kind of like…a commute. Time wasted, sure, but it’s all part of doing the job.
[/QUOTE]
…And a sight less painful than my own commute, too!