Battlestar Galactica 3.10 - "The Passage" (spoilers)

[Rubystreak]

Re: D’Anna Biers’ reason for rebooting herself over and over-- didn’t she tell Baltar that she could see the 5 boxed Cylon models, and he wanted her to tell him who they were. She claimed she couldn’t really remember them, but one of them might be Baltar. Do I have that right?

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Like everything else this ep, it doesn’t really make sense.
[/quote]

I think you’re overanalyzing the show. It’s fiction. I guess if I were well-versed in the hard sciences, I might have more trouble enjoying the show. As it is, I just tune out that stuff and go with it as a premise for character development, which is what it is, really.

It must be he’s just being nice because she’s dying. Which flies in the face of the colder harder Adama we were supposed to have gotten last episode (did I call that or what. If It’s a character driven show, try making your characters consistent. Adama, quit it with the speeches if they don’t mean anything. At least when Captain Janeway lectured us it meant something). She should have been reprimanded for disobeying orders and endangering lives.

Most of your crits were solid, but this one is absurd. Adama should have reprimanded a dying pilot who sacrificed herself to save lives? You think that would be in character, and it harmed your enjoyment of the show that he he didn’t? I could not disagree more. Adama has repeatedly been shown to be a hardass when he wants someone to change for the better; he is compassionate to people who are suffering, though. I thought his final scene with Kat was a little corny, but the girl was dying. Stick to criticizing the science, which although pointless, at least has some objective basis.

Starbuck was kind of a wench. First, she makes Kat feel like shit of lying to get in the military causing her to go do something stupid that gets herself killed, then gives her sleeping pills to finish the job. Damn Starbuck, you really want that “best pilot in the fleet” mug back, don’t you?

But here I agree with you. Her change of heart was a little tough to swallow. The sleeping pills bit was cold. Wouldn’t Doc Cottle euthanize her if she asked him to? I can’t imagine him refusing the request of someone who was definitely going to die in pain.

This whole algae processing thing is just insulting.

I completely did not get why all the ships had to go there. Maybe I wasn’t paying attention… was it said? Was even a bullshit reason given?

And these people can make all the booze they need but they can’t grow more uncontaminated algae?

It is very, very easy to make booze; people in prison make it in their toilets. Not so easy to grow enough algae to feed 40,000+ people.

[Merijeek]

[QUOTE=alphaboi867]
What would a “background” check even have consisted of? A ship’s manifest and passport? The Colonial government has some very strange record keeping policies. Every battlestar apparently contains DNA records for the whole fleet, yet convicts are transported with no records at all! :dubious:
[/QUOTE]

What? The military has military records but they don’t have records on civilian prisoners?!!?

Inconceivable!

-Joe

[Corner_Case]

[QUOTE=Cervaise]
…Then, after the jump to safety, we sit watching DRADIS, as in the show, waiting for Kat to reappear. But here’s the thing: she doesn’t. Long silence stretches into uncertainty and then cold realization. She stayed behind, trying to do her job, but she fails and neither she nor her civilian ship returns.
[/QUOTE]
Watching such a show at first would make me mad - for about 5 seconds. Then I would realize the shock that I didn’t want to face. Sometimes you stick your neck out and someone chops off your head.

We’ve all complained about the cliché that redshirts die but we never have to worry about the main or secondary characters. Her death by just failing her mission without a heroic save would just make me scream, “But it’s not supposed to be that way!” And if it were that way I could feel more fear that the main characters might not always win out.

“What, you think scarred Starbuck and destroyed Tighe have won out?” Yes, we see their descent, but Starbuck is getting back to being the Best Pilot and coming to terms with Apollo. Tighe is coming through and getting back on the bridge. Having Kat’s heroic ending just focusses me too much on the fact that everybody is overcoming all their ordeals. Of course they’re supposed to! I want them to face their problems and grow to overcome them! I just don’t want to be reminded that whatever happens they are going to overcome them.

@Cervaise

…we have an existing dramatic throughline.

Thanks for this idea. I always struggle when doing some writing about how to develop backstories and plotlines that are not directly those of the main characters. This reminds me to just focus events through their eyes.

@levdrakon

It must be he’s just being nice because she’s dying.

Adama shouldn’t have dressed her down in sickbay, but he shouldn’t have been talking about Zack being born in sickbay. Adama found how being soft impaired his judgement. It would have been more heart-wrenching for him to struggle with being “Admiral” and “father” in Kat’s sickbay scene. I don’t know how to script it, but it would have hit me harder to come away with Adama struggling to be the leader who sends people to die and the father protecting all of humanity. As it was left, I am just confused and frightened about Adama’s next decision. I don’t know where he’ll stand.

[alphaboi867]

[QUOTE=Merijeek]
What? The military has military records but they don’t have records on civilian prisoners?!!?

Inconceivable!

-Joe
[/QUOTE]

No, but one would think the Astral Queen would have a list of who they were carrying.

[Merijeek]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
I completely did not get why all the ships had to go there. Maybe I wasn’t paying attention… was it said? Was even a bullshit reason given?

[/QUOTE]

Well, there were 40,000 people starving to death. Everyone was so far gone that their combat pilots were digging through their footlockers, pooling their Saltine-equivalents, and then licking up the crumbs afterwards.

So, we can either bring the people to the food (presumably the ship/ships doing the processing were in the first batch) or we can…

1. Jump the processor to the food
2. Harvest the food
3. Proceess load 1 of food
4. Unload load 1 of food for transport to fleet
5. Run the gauntlet back to the fleet
   And repeat the above until you lose a load of food to a misjump or getting lost or whatever. And each time you’re losing what I presume is your most efficient transport ship since that’s the one you’d want to use for this.

Then you get riots on the ships not getting their food right away.

Or, you pack your people onto Galactica so they’re safer from the radiation. Then you move the food from the processing ship to the Galactica and feed them there. What’s the advantage? Well, you’re feeding 20% of your people at a time, and, more importantly, you’re feeding them under the guns of Galactica’s soldiers.

The plan isn’t as critically flawed as everyone around here seems to think. The biggest problem I had suspending disbelief here was wondering how quickly their processing facilities could crank out food. I find it hard to believe they can scoop our 40,000 people’s worth of algae, process it, and distribute it in a matter of a few days.

As for the star cluster, jumping through, jumping around, holding their noses and jumping, whatever - I’ll accept the fact that Gaeta and Adama have sense enough to have dealt with the, “why don’t we just go around?” angle. The reason Star Trek wouldn’t get a pass from me on something similar is because just last week they were able, for example, to fly through stars…

-Joe

[Merijeek]

[QUOTE=alphaboi867]
No, but one would think the Astral Queen would have a list of who they were carrying.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe I missed something important here - what is even making people think that there were no records on the prisoners aboard the AQ?

-Joe

[Smapti]

As for the star cluster, jumping through, jumping around, holding their noses and jumping, whatever - I’ll accept the fact that Gaeta and Adama have sense enough to have dealt with the, “why don’t we just go around?” angle.

IIRC, Gaeta did, in fact, mention that it would take too long to go around the star cluster before mass starvation set in.

[Lightray]

[QUOTE=carnivorousplant]
Moore just wants to tell a story rather than write good science fiction.
[/QUOTE]

Why is this in any way a surprise? It’s been that way since the miniseries. Moore has said so, over and over again, in his podcasts and interviews.

BSG having the occasionally more competent technobabble than Star Trek seems to have confused some people into thinking that their emphasis is on the ‘science’ side of things, rather than on the ‘fiction’ side.

[QUOTE=Corner Case]
Adama shouldn’t have dressed her down in sickbay, but he shouldn’t have been talking about Zack being born in sickbay. Adama found how being soft impaired his judgement. It would have been more heart-wrenching for him to struggle with being “Admiral” and “father” in Kat’s sickbay scene. I don’t know how to script it, but it would have hit me harder to come away with Adama struggling to be the leader who sends people to die and the father protecting all of humanity. As it was left, I am just confused and frightened about Adama’s next decision. I don’t know where he’ll stand.
[/QUOTE]

Adama had decided “no more Mr. Nice Guy” because it was having an effect on the efficiency of his crew – as well as on his own decisions. Recall that it was Tyrol allowing his men to slack off that triggered Adama getting into the ring – because Tyrol had grown used to Adama allowing him to do that. Basically, Adama wanted to put fear of the Old Man back into them.

Didn’t really matter anymore with Kat, though. Even if she realized that Adama’s an old softie because of his fireside chat with her, who cares? she’ll be dead before she can take advantage of that knowledge to slack off herself.

The real weirdness is the message he’s sending to the pilots: how do you get promoted to CAG? kill yourself by disobeying orders. Not the best plan of action when you’re limited on pilots. (and when one of those pilots is Hotdog, who is… not bright)

[QUOTE=Merijeek]
Maybe I missed something important here - what is even making people think that there were no records on the prisoners aboard the AQ?
[/QUOTE]

Better yet, what is even making people think that Tom Zarek would allow those records to be turned over to the military? And since he’s now captain of the AQ and vice-president he’s got the clout to refuse – which we all know that he would.
Also, I suspect that we’ll see more on how the algae harvesting in this week’s episode. That (might) explain why they needed to jump all the ships in.

[Merijeek]

[QUOTE=Lightray]

Better yet, what is even making people think that Tom Zarek would allow those records to be turned over to the military? And since he’s now captain of the AQ and vice-president he’s got the clout to refuse – which we all know that he would.
[/QUOTE]

Well, from the way people were talking it’s like there was a line somewhere where the Captain of the Astral Queen (pre-revolt) had said something like, “Hell, I don’t know who we’re carrying. Why, is it important?” or something.

-Joe

[levdrakon]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Re: D’Anna Biers’ reason for rebooting herself over and over-- didn’t she tell Baltar that she could see the 5 boxed Cylon models, and he wanted her to tell him who they were. She claimed she couldn’t really remember them, but one of them might be Baltar. Do I have that right?
[/quote]
5 boxed models? I didn’t realize that. When did they get boxed? How did it happen? What episode was this in?

I think you’re overanalyzing the show. It’s fiction. I guess if I were well-versed in the hard sciences, I might have more trouble enjoying the show. As it is, I just tune out that stuff and go with it as a premise for character development, which is what it is, really.

I’m still confused whether it’s a sci-fi show or a character development show or something in-between. I properly ignore the “suspension of disbelief” science as anyone who watches Star Trek, Star Wars or Stargate would. But internal inconsistencies distract me from the character development.

The degree to which a Science Fiction show should ignore science over character development is of course worthy of discussion.

Most of your crits were solid, but this one is absurd. Adama should have reprimanded a dying pilot who sacrificed herself to save lives? You think that would be in character, and it harmed your enjoyment of the show that he he didn’t? I could not disagree more. Adama has repeatedly been shown to be a hardass when he wants someone to change for the better; he is compassionate to people who are suffering, though. I thought his final scene with Kat was a little corny, but the girl was dying.

No, I don’t think he should reprimand a dying pilot on her deathbed. I should have been more clear. It’s just that there are reasons military people are trained to obey orders and when you’ve been ordered to “jump” and you don’t and it just so happens you did something heroic by disobeying orders the fact remains you still disobeyed orders and you don’t want to send the message to all your pilots that disobeying orders is what gets you promoted to CAG, even posthumously. Actually, if they’d indicated the posthumous promotion was clearly to honor her death, but not encourage her reckless behavior I’m cool with it.

Stick to criticizing the science, which although pointless, at least has some objective basis.

Could you please refrain from telling me what I can or can not criticize about a science fiction show? TIA.

I completely did not get why all the ships had to go there. Maybe I wasn’t paying attention… was it said? Was even a bullshit reason given?

The bullshit reason more likely than not involved a bit of pointless science so I’m not sure why you care. This is a character development show to you, is it not?

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
5 boxed models? I didn’t realize that. When did they get boxed? How did it happen? What episode was this in?
[/quote]

Baltar said to Xenabot in this ep, “So when you resurrect, you see the faces of the final 5… the ones that no one’s seen.” She says, “Why do you want to know about them?” He responds, “I could be a Cylon. I would stop being a traitor to one set of people and be a hero to another… have you seen my face?”

Doesn’t that seem to indicate that he is referring to the 5 models of Cylons we haven’t seen before? Do you have a better theory on what this piece of dialogue meant?

I’m still confused whether it’s a sci-fi show or a character development show or something in-between. I properly ignore the “suspension of disbelief” science as anyone who watches Star Trek, Star Wars or Stargate would. But internal inconsistencies distract me from the character development.

That’s fine for you. I didn’t know I had to pick if it was a sci-fi show or a character development show. Is it only black and white in this conversation? Can’t it be a show about characters that happens to take place in a science fiction setting? Since the science is so faulty, why not focus on what the show does well, which is character development with interesting storylines in an intriguing setting? I do, and I feel a lot more positive about the show. If I didn’t, I’d stop watching in a second.

The degree to which a Science Fiction show should ignore science over character development is of course worthy of discussion.

I’m glad you think so. It’s just hard for me to accept sentient cyborg life, faster than light travel, etc., and get hung up on some of the, admittedly quite flawed, pseudoscientific stuff that upsets people who claim to be fans of this show.

it just so happens you did something heroic by disobeying orders

That’s not how I saw it. Shrug.

the fact remains you still disobeyed orders and you don’t want to send the message to all your pilots that disobeying orders is what gets you promoted to CAG, even posthumously. Actually, if they’d indicated the posthumous promotion was clearly to honor her death, but not encourage her reckless behavior I’m cool with it.

I thought it was fantastically clear that Kat wouldn’t have gotten that promotion over Lee Adama if Kat wasn’t dying. Wasn’t that obvious to you?

Could you please refrain from telling me what I can or can not criticize about a science fiction show? TIA.

Could you please refrain from being so nasty? TIA, whatever the hell that is.

The bullshit reason more likely than not involved a bit of pointless science so I’m not sure why you care. This is a character development show to you, is it not?

It’s a show I enjoy. It’s not perfect, and it’s not a documentary about life in space either. Chill, and keep your Pit venom in the Pit, please.

[levdrakon]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Baltar said to Xenabot in this ep, “So when you resurrect, you see the faces of the final 5… the ones that no one’s seen.” She says, “Why do you want to know about them?” He responds, “I could be a Cylon. I would stop being a traitor to one set of people and be a hero to another… have you seen my face?”

Doesn’t that seem to indicate that he is referring to the 5 models of Cylons we haven’t seen before? Do you have a better theory on what this piece of dialogue meant?
[/quote]
If I don’t must I stop participating in this thread because you’re in charge of the conversation now? You’re in charge of what is or isn’t worthy of discussion?

I think D’Anna has already made it clear they don’t speak about the other five models of Cylons and I don’t think the other five models of Cylons are why she’s killing herself and resurrecting. I think Baltar wondering if she’s seeing his face during her resurrections is because he’s… Baltar. The Six in his head (which may be his own subconscious) has convinced him he’s part of God’s plan and being on that Basestar he’s desperately trying to find some way in which he’s important and worth more than just spacing. In Baltar’s world it’s all about Baltar in the end. “Did you see me when you resurrected?” That’s sooo Baltar.

Since the science is so faulty, why not focus on what the show does well, which is character development with interesting storylines in an intriguing setting?

If I’ve given you the impression I ignore character development, storylines and settings, forgive me.

I’m glad you think so. It’s just hard for me to accept sentient cyborg life, faster than light travel, etc., and get hung up on some of the, admittedly quite flawed, pseudoscientific stuff that upsets people who claim to be fans of this show.

Ah, I think I see what’s going on. I have no problem accepting FTL, but if in one episode a Cylon can transmit its consciousness many light years and the next episode it needs to be near a resurrection ship it bugs me because however fantastic the overall concept is, I still need it to be consistent from one ep to another, but to you it’s just made up science. Would this accurately describe the problem you have with me, and people like me?

I thought it was fantastically clear that Kat wouldn’t have gotten that promotion over Lee Adama if Kat wasn’t dying. Wasn’t that obvious to you?

No, but clearly we have different strengths so in the future I’ll rely on you to help me understand some character stuff I might miss and maybe you’ll forgive me obsessing a bit overmuch about some science-ey stuff and together we’ll all get along? Pretty please?

[OpalCat]

Wow. I have to agree with Rubystreak… chill the frak out. Why are you so nasty over this??

[levdrakon]

[QUOTE=OpalCat]
Wow. I have to agree with Rubystreak… chill the frak out. Why are you so nasty over this??
[/QUOTE]
I’m being nasty? She tells me my “crit” is absurd and I should stick to criticizing the science, “which although pointless, at least has some objective basis” and I’m being nasty?

What’s going on here?

I’m sorry. Forgot what thread I was in. I lurv this show! Lurv it, lurv it, lurv it! ::sucks lollypop::

[cerberus]

A few belated notes.

At a purely emotional level, the episode worked. Logically, not so much.

They could have docked the Raptors to the ships, or they could have mounted hardened jump computers in the ships ( note to the Engineers… install secure, hardened computing/navigational rooms in each ship, stat.) Or they could have synchronised the ship/raptor pairs, so that the Raptor could directly “talk” to the ship being guided. Just have a cable connecting them with hardened channels, and there you go.

Lee was the CAG for Galactica before he took over Pegasus - He vacated the job, and he’s a career pilot, and he’s a trained test pilot, … yada yada yada. Kat was a fantastic find, but CAG is more admin/mentor/command than being the Best Frakking Pilot in the Fleet.

[Merijeek]

You know, this:

[QUOTE=levdrakon]

Could you please refrain from telling me what I can or can not criticize about a science fiction show? TIA.

[/QUOTE]

Isn’t really helped by you being snippy like this:

[QUOTE=levdrakon]

The bullshit reason more likely than not involved a bit of pointless science so I’m not sure why you care. This is a character development show to you, is it not?
[/QUOTE]

-Joe

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
If I don’t must I stop participating in this thread because you’re in charge of the conversation now? You’re in charge of what is or isn’t worthy of discussion?
[/quote]

Huh? I never said anything resembling this. I asked you to stop being so nasty. If that precludes your participation in the discussion, that’s your look-out.

I think D’Anna has already made it clear they don’t speak about the other five models of Cylons and I don’t think the other five models of Cylons are why she’s killing herself and resurrecting

I think it is the reason, and I have ample textual evidence from this episode. D’Anna was drawing pictures of the people she saw during her resurrection, and that they were the missing five. I could be wrong, but I don’t think you’ve convinced me.

I think Baltar wondering if she’s seeing his face during her resurrections is because he’s… Baltar. The Six in his head (which may be his own subconscious) has convinced him he’s part of God’s plan and being on that Basestar he’s desperately trying to find some way in which he’s important and worth more than just spacing. In Baltar’s world it’s all about Baltar in the end. “Did you see me when you resurrected?” That’s sooo Baltar.

He flat-out ASKED D’Anna if he was a Cylon. Flat out asked.

Would this accurately describe the problem you have with me, and people like me?

Hahahaha. No. My problem with you (not people like you-- I’m not going to lump others in with you) is that you are being more unpleasant than is necessary, nitpicking and being totally negative about the show. That is all.

No, but clearly we have different strengths so in the future I’ll rely on you to help me understand some character stuff I might miss and maybe you’ll forgive me obsessing a bit overmuch about some science-ey stuff and together we’ll all get along? Pretty please?

Only if you’re very good from now on.

[Lightray]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Re: D’Anna Biers’ reason for rebooting herself over and over-- didn’t she tell Baltar that she could see the 5 boxed Cylon models, and he wanted her to tell him who they were. She claimed she couldn’t really remember them, but one of them might be Baltar. Do I have that right?
[/QUOTE]

You’ve mixed Internet speculation in with what has actually been revealed on the show so far.

D’Anna has been seeing something or someone while she’s downloaded in between death and life; those are the drawings she showed to Baltar.

Baltar assumed that the people she’s seeing/drawing were the missing models that the Cylons don’t talk about. D’Anna was surprised that Baltar knew about the missing models; she hadn’t told Baltar about them when she was hesitantly telling him about her experiences – Baltar made that connection himself.

Fans on the Internet have been speculating about the status of the five missing models, and some of this speculation has come from spoilers:

Spoilers have suggested that the other five models were all “boxed” because they’re frakkin’ nuts, and that the 5’s (= D’Anna) are destined for the same. The show has not yet revealed the status of the five missing models, though – because, you know, they don’t talk about them. For all we know, the missing five models could be the re-imaged Ship of Light people and they exist in some metaphysically hand-wavy higher state or something.

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=Lightray]
You’ve mixed Internet speculation in with what has actually been revealed on the show so far.

D’Anna has been seeing something or someone while she’s downloaded in between death and life; those are the drawings she showed to Baltar.
[/quote]

Baltar did mention the “final 5” to D’Anna, and she said, somewhat unconvincingly, that she didn’t remember. I think she’s onto something and keeps rebooting to get more info. You’re correct in that D’Anna didn’t SAY she saw the missing 5, that Baltar inferred it.

Baltar made that connection himself.

Do you think he’s wrong? I’m just going with his idea. He also seems to think that he was one of the missing 5, and that D’Anna could clear that up for him.

[carnivorousplant]

[QUOTE=cerberus]
they could have mounted hardened jump computers in the ships ( note to the Engineers… install secure, hardened computing/navigational rooms in each ship, stat.)
[/QUOTE]

Do they have any?
What kind of repair capabilites do they have?
Cana they manufacture integrated circuits?
Perhaps they loaded up on spares at Ragnock station or whereever they got more armament.