Battlestar Galactica 4.6 - "Escape Velocity" (spoilers ho)

I think there’s something to this. It seems the Cylons have a problem dealing with strong emotions–Tory’s “getting their wires crossed” comment regarding pleasure and pain seems telling after seeing Tigh ask for “more” of the beating Six gave him. And I wonder if it’s having an effect on Tyrol–is overpowering grief getting “crossed” with masochistic rage?

These same conflicts, of course, exist in humans, but they seem far more pronounced among the Cylons–witness Cavil and Boomer kissing (ewww!) as they slaughtered the other models’ base ships in the last episode…

Hardly a sound moral reason for opposing her. Thus, it is as I suspect it was: Lee is opposing Roslin because she was pissy to him and rejected his olive branch. I concede that he had it right this time, though again, his reasons for opposing her are less morally lofty than he’d like to think.

I never denied anyone’s flaws. Roslin is far from perfect and sometimes goes to far with her black and white thinking about right and wrong. I simply find Lee’s flaws and overall personality more annoying and have more sympathy towards Roslin. I also understand why she wanted to airlock Helo’s Sharon. Events thus far would indicate that would have been a wrong decision; however, I still have my suspicions about Athena, and though they might not be borne out by the show, I can understand why anyone wouldn’t trust a Cylon to be a member of Galactica’s crew. It still feels like a bad idea to me.

I didn’t misread anything. I don’t think Galactica could turn into Pegasus even if there were no checks on Roslin. Cain was much more of a martinent that Roslin, and under her totalitarian rule things happened that Roslin would never allow. Roslin (and any ruler) needs the perspective offered by a democratic government and benefits from it.

Wow, you seem a lot more confident about pulling out these kinds of motives than seems supportable from the text. I think every character is much more complex than this. It’s pretty clear Apollo didn’t do what he did just because he felt slighted by Roslin. I think, at least partially, he was trying to find reasons to believe that Zarek was wrong about her and she failed to give him any.

I have posited a situation in which Galactica has no civilian fleet. In such a case, there would be no Roslin. So Roslin’s personal traits wouldn’t really be relevant.

I think Lee’s reasons for opposing her are sound, but his methods of opposing her are crap. In the meeting I had the impression that Lee was going to take Roslyn aside after the meeting and confront her with Zarek’s evidence in private. Once Roslyn slapped him down (he deserved it, what he did really was very insulting to Roslyn even if he didn’t mean it to be) he reacted by calling her out in public. This is exactly the same thing that happened in season 1 with Starbuck. Remember, he was pissy with her, she punched him in the face and he immediatly punched her back. This time it was just with words. To quote Starbuck, “Same old Lee.”

The last time Roslyn was having visions we as the audience were privy to what she was seeing. I think she’s still having visions but the writers are hiding them from us this time. It might explain some of her behaviours.

Wow yourself… I think I’ve offered ample textual evidence. Lightray’s version of events and Frazzled’s take on it matched my recollections, wherein Lee patronizingly tried to “support” Roslin as an olive branch, and when she didn’t want it, and gave him the rough side of her tongue, that’s when he became oppositional in the meeting. Rewatch the episode and see. It’s not like he doesn’t have a history of knee-jerk contrarianism. That’s not to say he has no principles, but sometimes they seem like a justification after the fact for following his basic nature.

One snippy moment and she “failed to give him any” reason to think that Zarek wasn’t right about her? Isn’t that jumping to conclusions awfully fast? Would that conversation in Quorum gone down differently if she was sweet and nice to him? I think it would have, and it also would have if he’d thought through what he said and how she reacted, which he didn’t because he immediately attacked back.

We have seen Lee defying anyone he considers an authority and being reactive instead of reflective at times. He lashes back out of ethics and out of reflex, not necessarily in that order. That’s not to say it’s not a healthy corrective for Roslin (or Starbuck, or his father, or the Colonies), nor that he isn’t rooted in principle, but it’s alo part of his inherent nature. Normally, I’d love a character like this. However, Lee comes off as adolescent and petulant when he does it, which is part of why the character annoys me. He seems to annoy the other characters on the show as well when he acts this way, so it’s not just my biases causing this opinion of him.

So you’re saying Bill Adama would be the Cain analogue? I don’t see it. Tigh, maybe could have gone down that road, but he’s not the Admiral. I think Pegasus was what it was because of the environment created by Cain’s leadership and the subordinates she had working for her. Also, if you’re saying the “civilian fleet” is what moderated the military leadership on Galactica, you’re largely crediting the Roslin government, aren’t you?

No. Lee was going to oppose Roslyn whether or not she accepted his olive branch. Because he’s Lee. He’s all about Doing The Right Thing.

When Laura got all pissy and rejected his olive branch, she just decided in which venue Lee would stand up to her – in public, instead of in private. In private definately would’ve been easier on her, and she might’ve actually had a chance for things to go her way with only Lee to convince into silence. In front of the Quorum, as she forced matters? no way.

And let’s note that Laura knew that is how Lee would react. She said as much to his father. That whole confrontation torpedoing her attempts to silence Baltar was all her fault.

Laura being pissy to Lee had nothing to do with Lee’s opposition to her. Her pseudo-fascist executive order was the reason for that.

She forced matters? I don’t see it that way. He decided to bring the issue up that she wasn’t going to mention until the following week. He did this because he was pissed that she smacked him down. And THAT is where my feeling about his behavior comes from.

Are you saying that she knew that he was going to bring up one subject because she was short with him about something else? How could she?

I disagree. I think it had a lot to do with his opposition: the context, nature, and extent of it.

Nothing to do with Lee’s opposition to her this time :slight_smile: It was Lee’s opposition to her in Baltar’s case that opened up this whole sordid mess. Laura believes if she can’t get her way through public means she’ll get her way through private means. So what if it isn’t 100% scandal free, she knows what she’s doing is for everybody’s own good. How dare Lee stand in her way!

Obviously Laura did not know that Zarek had leaked that particular file to Lee, and so did not know that he would be bringing that up, specifically. But. She set the tone of their subsequent interaction by her pissy dismissal of his proffered olive branch.

All of the consequences of her silencing Baltar came from that choice on her part. Had she been more cordial to Lee, he no doubt would have approached her privately about his concerns. She chose to be dismissive and confrontational… and got confrontation, in return.

Lee was not the one throwing the tantrum. Laura was. Because Lee had helped Baltar. And the results of her tantrum bit her in the ass, and she’s still blaming Lee for it biting her in the ass.

There is No Way that Laura Roslyn did not realize her secret little order was shady. Tom Zarek – of all people – thought it was shady. That’s like having Jabba the Hutt comment that you might’ve gone a bit overboard in cheating on your income taxes.

And, seriously, you believe that Lee only opposed Roslyn’s order against Baltar because he was sulking? Seriously? That if he hadn’t been sulking, he would have let her suppression order go by? What past actions of his make you think that was ever a possibility?

Zarek knew exactly how Lee would react. That’s why he gave the file to him. And Roslyn knew how Lee – and everyone else – would react. That’s why she kept it secret. Lee’s opposition was certain. All that was in doubt was when and where and how. And Laura’s actions were what determined that.

Laura had no intent to bring her kangaroo court into the open. Lee forced her hand with his actions and she was pissed, hence the reason she was complaining about it to the senior Adama.

I think I pretty much agree with Rubystreak on this. I don’t think she’s saying he opposed her actions because he was sulking, just that he gave Laura a hearty “Frak You” and made the issue public when he originally was probably going to confront her quietly until he heard her side in private.

I don’t think she knew what the consequences of her verbal roughness would be. I think she would have soft soaped him had she realized, don’t you?

One could argue that his pompous and patronizing olive branch provoked her, considering their recent alienation due to his role in the Baltar acquittal. It seems presumptuous to me.

She doesn’t like him right now because he helped Baltar. However, I don’t see it has her tantrum. I see it as his (one of many he’s had). He may have been in the right on the issue, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t also have a hissy fit.

Of course she knew it was shady. She thinks the ends justify the means. While I think she was wrong because of the broad brush her law painted with, and the heavy handed enforcement, a I can fully sympathize with her frustration over Baltar and with Lee.

No, but he wouldn’t have done what he did in public, the way he did, either. I have said, over and over, that is was his childish petulance that annoyed me, not the substance of his position. He wanted to put her dick in the dirt and he did it.

How could she have determined his actions if she didn’t even know that he knew about the order? I think she was reacting to his faux show of support, and then she got the horns from him on an unrelated topic. Would he have opposed it anyway? Yes. Would there maybe have been compromise if he wasn’t having a snit fit at the time? Very possibly. I think our fundamental difference in interpretation here comes from who started the assholery in this situation. That, I guess, is a matter of interpretation.

Bottom line: Tom Zarek is playing everyone like a fiddle. Good for him, I guess. Wonder what else he has up his sleeve.

The text is full of ambiguity. There is evidence for multiple understandings, and, most likely, all of them are true to some extent.

If you’re suggesting that he discovers his principles only after being contrary, I disagree.

I never said that Adama would become exactly like Cain, but there would be less influence on him on one side. Even slight changes in circumstances can have dramatic influences on outcomes.

You’re missing several levels of subtlety here. It has never been my position that Apollo is exactly right and that Roslin is exactly wrong. Every character is right and wrong to various extents. Every character has correct and incorrect motives to some extent. The whole theme of the show is that being human is never unequivocally good or evil, right or wrong, and, in fact, looking for who’s right and who’s wrong either in specific circumstances or more generally is missing the point.

From another angle: Ron Moore is an atheist or an agnostic. But all of the characters in the show are struggling with religion, belief, faith. Do you really think that Moore is setting up a story whose purpose is to show you the character whose answer is right?

Right. You said I didn’t have enough textual evidence. I do. Thus, my interpretation is true to some extent. It would be nice if that could be acknowledged instead of you telling me I’m wrong.

His enactment of his principles is often dictated by his reflexive nature. I also think he sometimes fails to see the long-term consequences of his stances, and doesn’t always know WHY he acts as he does. That doesn’t means he’s wrong or unprincipled, only that he can be impulsive and unreflective. And his tone grates on me.

Yeah, OK, another agree to disagree. I can’t see Adama becoming Cain-like. She shot an officer on the bridge because he had a principled disagreement with her orders, didn’t she? And authorized the rape-torture of Six. Way over the top, not things I see Adama doing under any circumstances.

Interestingly… neither am I. So what the hell are we arguing about here? I have acknowledged the various ways in which Roslin and Lee were right and wrong in this situation. However, my feeling is still that Lee acted childish in the way he went about his opposition of Roslin. And arguing about that is futile because I think people have offered their take on it and I still see that scene the way I see it… and the text can support my interpretation, so I’m OK with it if you don’t agree.

I’m relieved to find, then, that I haven’t missed the point. And I think that’s true of ANY argument, so that’s something for you to consider.

What? I don’t know why you’re bringing this up. I think you’re trying to say that I think there’s one right interpretation and one wrong one, and that’s the WRONG way to look at it, but this is all getting too circular for me now.

This, I think, is what is sticking in my craw here. Apollo wears his principles on his sleeve – readily apparent for anyone to see. There was never any question that he would oppose Roslyn’s order. Just like he opposed conveniently disposing of Zarek way back in Season 1. And just like he opposed letting Baltar getting a ride on a rail out the nearest airlock for his trial, last season.

Everybody around him knows how he’s going to react to things. Everybody comments on exactly that, to him, all the time. He is always being played by those people relying on his predictable reactions. It is not plausible that Lee would be mystified by why he is doing something until after the fact. He’s not that much of a naif.

You recall that the person who suggested that, in the absence of Roslyn and the civilian fleet, Adama might have become just like Caine was… Adama himself, yes? I’d think that of all the characters, I’d trust him to understand what he is capable of.

The way I saw it is she may not have known Zarek had slipped him the file, but she seemed prepared if he had. Apollo thought he had a “gotcha!” and it fell flat. That pissed him off so he went Captain Truth & Justice on her ass. That seems to be Lee’s style. His style didn’t stop him from shooting Black Market Leader in cold blood.

I think other people have a better idea of how he’s going to react and what he’s going to do than he does. You can point him and he shoots, and in fact, that’s happened, hasn’t it? He comes off as a naif in Black Market, that’s for sure.

Yet it’s Roslin who comes off as much more dictatorial and heavy handed than Adama. It’s usually he who is blocking her shady maneuvers. I think Adama is very willing to give Roslin credit for moderating him, but he does a lot to moderate her. It’s a good balance. However, that said, even without the checks and balances, I still can’t imagine Adama pulling a sidearm and capping someone for disagreeing with him, can you? Cain is portrayed as a caricature of the generalissimo. There is always a risk when there is absolute power. Perhaps Adama would have become what Cain was. Probably not.

Not saying you’re right or wrong, but Adama did threaten to have Cally executed as a traitor if Tyrol didn’t provide information about who was responsible for the work stoppage in the fuel refinery. Went so far as to call somebody and give the commands; Tyrol knuckled and Adama withdrew the order. Tyrol reminded Adama of this during the meltdown scene in the current episode, and Adama didn’t argue the point.

If he were Helena Cain, he would have just capped Cally and said to Chief, “You’re next.” Then off to authorize the rape squads.

Yeah, I guess they’ve all got a little touch of the tyrannical monster. Who would bear up better under the circumstances? I think it’s impossible to be perfectly just and merciful while also being responsible for decisions that could determine the fate of the human race. Adama doesn’t do so bad. Neither does Roslin, IMO. We do love their flaws, after all. They both look fantastic next to Baltar.

Actually, she would have executed Cally, turned to Tyrol, and said, “Your son is next unless you talk.”

I guess I’m sort of splitting the difference here, in terms of the question of whether Adama would have stayed Adama or if he’d have drifted Cainward without any external influence. The bottom line is, just because the Admiral is the closest thing we have to a hero on the show doesn’t make him, y’know, an actual hero. None of the characters is particularly admirable – though, Gods love 'em, they’re all understandable and to some degree relatable, yes, even Baltar. And because of the variance in viewer perspective, different people will feel differently about one character versus another. A good friend of mine, for example, wants Laura Roslin to be her mentor. Totally looks up to her. Thinks she can do no wrong. Blind to her faults. The whole works. And, hey, that’s fine for her. Another friend has nothing but love for Starbuck, self-destructive streak and all.

Me, I’m soft on Lee, because I have more than a bit of the annoyingly stubborn idealist in me. A guarded relationship with authority, rigorously consistent attention to principle, and sticking to my moral guns lo even to the point of contrariness, are qualities that have gotten me close to fired from a couple of jobs in the past. Yes, I’ll readily concede this makes me somewhat predictable, occasionally prickly, and hard to get close to. And it’s been a limitation in my career, because I’m a crappy politician and a crappier liar. But it’s who I am, for better and for worse, and not only can I identify with Lee’s struggles to stay true to his principles, I really identify when he winds himself so tight he snaps and gives in to spite or petulance. It may not be pretty, but damn if it isn’t true.

Of course, just for the record, this close identification doesn’t mean I always enjoy watching the character. Sometimes it’s actually uncomfortable. In general, the character I most enjoy watching and thinking about is Tigh, partly because the character is a hundred and eighty degrees away from me, and partly because the actor’s performance is so frakking spectacular. Either way, I have some distance, and I can just appreciate what’s happening without being hooked into it. The character I personally ache for, though, is Lee.

And not to flog a dead daggit but that’s why the show’s so great. I mean, this is, what, the third thread in a row where the debate about the show’s storyline has taken a back seat to a debate about the characters. The first episode, we’re all getting re-engaged with the plot; there’s tons of narrative to establish and lots of storylines to set up, so that’s what we talked about. Now, though, we’re getting into the meat of the season, and it’s the conflicts between the characters that’s the driving engine of the show. (As opposed to typical TV SF, where external conflicts like exploding stars and meteor diseases provide the conflict.) Naturally, we feel varying degrees of loyalty to different characters, so we find ourselves arguing about motivation, backstory, emotion, justification of choices… subjects where nobody is ever really right except for and within themselves. I expect to catch a little heat for my loyalty to Lee, because, yeah, he’s a bit of a prig, and he drives a lot of people crazy. But I’m not going to apologize for it, any more than I would take the inverse position and castigate someone for finding Starbuck the most compelling character.

Everybody on the show is terribly flawed, just like every one of us is terribly flawed. The intensity of their circumstances serves to inflate those flaws and throw them into sharp relief against their positive, even heroic qualities. We see things we recognize, and we keep coming back because in the backs of our minds we wonder how we ourselves would deal with such a situation. That’s what draws me, and all the friends in my viewing circle.

Some people like the pretty spaceships and asplosions, not to mention the occasionally nekkid Boomer, so the show tosses in a few of those moments as well. :slight_smile: But as far as I’m concerned, that stuff is just icing.

Anyway: all of this is sort of a long-winded appeal for continued civility in the discussion. There’s some heat in the debate, as people argue for or against their favored characters, and that’s fine, because emotional loyalty is a powerful thing. Just keep in mind variant loyalties will be an inevitable result of the show’s construction. As was discussed above, in the confrontation between Lee and Roslin, both of them are, objectively speaking, simultaneously right and wrong. How can anyone choose a side? And yet, we do, and then we seek reasons why. Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that somebody who chooses a different side is somehow wrong; the show rarely gives us the luxury of clear good-and-evil boundaries. (And when it does, as in “The Woman King,” it almost invariably falls on its ass, and everyone hates it.) As I pointed out in a previous thread, if this were Star Trek, nobody would be taking the Cardassians’ side against the Federation; that may be fun but it’s programmatic cowboys-and-indians stuff. Approaching BSG with that mindset is just asking for trouble.
Aaaaaand this turned out to be way longer than I expected it to be. Time for bed, and I’ll look at this in the morning to see if my rambling makes anything like sense. :slight_smile: