[QUOTE=acsenray]
What “crime” are you talking about?
[/QUOTE]
If they were on the side of the angels they could have fessed up. Sharon has been accepted after all. Instead they clandestinely meet and discuss who knows what. Surely Tigh at leats has a duty as a military officer to turn himself in? Or is don’t ask don’t tell getting really far out there? 
I want to point out that my “defense” of Tory (I finally looked it up at imdb–it’s spelled with a y) was only to point out that there was a justification possible that even a rational and non-evil person might feel was (regrettably) necessary, and that her action of getting rid of Cally (looked that one up too–also a y) didn’t de facto make her evil. I still think she’s a ruthless bitch, mind you. And she might turn out to actually be evil–I don’t know. I just didn’t think that one action was Proof Positive because I could see a non-evil person feeling they had no choice but to do the same.
[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Isn’t being a Cylon and lying to everyone you know sort of a crime?
[/quote]
So in order to be good, they would have to turn themselves in as Cylons to be likely put out of an airlock just like Calley? At the very least, they are putting their individual safety at an extreme risk in a society where there will be plenty of people happy to try to smash them like bugs, or dissect them like rats.
No, I just don’t see keeping quiet as a crime. There’s some moral right to self-preservation, one that Laura Roslin, William Adama, and many other members of the fleet have claimed for themselves. It’s no different for the Final 4/5 to claim some of that.
Might it literally be a crime? Is there a Colonial law that says “If you are a Cylon, you must turn yourself in?” I suppose it’s possible. But how would we view a law that makes you a criminal based on a characteristic of your birth, over which you have no control? I wouldn’t consider that a just law. Even if there is a literal crime, it’s not a moral crime to be a Cylon.
I still see a whole lot of presumption here. “Acting out”? I don’t see any “acting out” here. Getting outed as a Cylon is not a walk in the park. “Sociopathic”? She might be a sociopath, but we just don’t have evidence for that yet.
Killing a person is pretty raw. But we’ve seen several “angels” willing to do that. Does one killing make you “evil”? Don’t you get to balance that with the rest of your life?
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers]
If they were on the side of the angels they could have fessed up.
[/quote]
That’s a completely unfair standard. Who in this show is “on the side of angels”? Certainly not Roslin. The guiding motivation of the rag-tag fleet is survival. That’s a legitimate aim for the Final 4/5s as well.
Who doesn’t know what they’re discussing. We know. Their principal agenda item as been “Shit. What do we do now?”
I think my whole point is that one of the major themes of this show is that “good” and “evil” are not clearly drawn concepts and while they might be applicable to individual acts, they are not existential concepts. Yes, I’ll accept that attempted genocide is evil. Does that mean every individual Cylon is justifiably subject to summary execution as an “evil” being without delving deeper into that individual Cylon’s actions and decisions? No, I don’t accept that.
yeah, but Tory has now taken it a step further than not fessing up. She has killed to protect the secret. I would have been more sanguine if the Chief had killed her defending himself from a wrench attack, but what Tory did was just chilling.
I’m not sure I used existential correctly there. What I mean to say is that:
An act might be evil or good, or, quite often, might be ambiguous. But one cannot judge an individual sentient being is not, as a state of being, an evil being based on one act that might or might not be evil.
[QUOTE=acsenray]
What “crime” are you talking about?
[/QUOTE]
Don’t ask, man. He might discover himself to be evil when push comes to shove.
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers]
yeah, but Tory has now taken it a step further than not fessing up. She has killed to protect the secret.
[/QUOTE]
Not quite that simply. She killed to protect the secret… from a woman who probably tried to kill her husband (wrench to the head probably counts as attempted murder, no matter how you slice it), was willing to offer her baby and sacrifice herself in the process.
With that situation, it wasn’t just a question of being outed, but what might happen when they were outed. Or, even, as I posited earlier, that the next time Cally would just use a bullet to the head rather than a wrench.
[QUOTE=acsenray]
So in order to be good, they would have to turn themselves in as Cylons to be likely put out of an airlock just like Calley?
[/quote]
They didn’t airlock Athena, even after she died, went through resurection on a Cylon ship, and came back. Obviously the humans have a capacity for forgiveness and understanding. Chief damn well knows that. Tigh is probably feeling incredibly weird due to his deep and abiding racial hatred for the Cylons. Tory would have followed the group’s lead, but now it’s too late because she’s already killed to keep the secret.
I keep pointing out how they treated Sharon. They also didn’t kill the Six who came back with Sharon despite her crimes against humanity. There is no real reason to think that they would be summarily executed. They are being selfish. Remember that Boomer was triggered to kill Adama, an eventuality that Tigh fears. Yet they do nothing to prevent such a thing from happening. One murder has already happened. I think they are clearly in the wrong for keeping their natures secret.
We’ll have to agree to disagree because I think it is, and it’s becoming more and more of one as events unfold.
No, so then why keep it secret?
The problem is that Cylons are machines who can be remotely triggered to commit crimes that they don’t even want to commit. This puts everyone on Galactica in danger. High ranking officials like Tigh, and people with access to the entire fleet of Galactica like Chief, or Tory, who is the President’s right hand man, keeping this secret-- are definitely doing something wrong.
Take a look at her face as she kills Cally.
Committing genocide puts you NOT on the side of the angels, and survival is not the Cylon agenda. Dissent on the subject is a recent thing in Cylon society, and not something that the humans know about.
Who is calling for summary execution of all individual Cylons? No one in this thread. Some of the characters in the show, yes, but that’s understandable to me. In fact, there are 2 Cylons who have lived in safety on Galactica for some time now. All the Final 4 know about them. Clamining self-protection as a reason for the secrecy is a rationalization because each of them has an agenda behind their secrecy, which are not entirely above board.
[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
There is no real reason to think that they would be summarily executed.
[/QUOTE]
Roslin had the first Leoben of the series (after the miniseries, in the episode “Flesh and Bone”) tossed out the airlock for … no crime at all. He claimed to have planted a nuke, messed with Starbuck’s head, whispered something mean into Roslin’s ear, and for this, and nothing else, he got spaced.
[QUOTE=Cervaise]
Roslin had the first Leoben of the series (after the miniseries, in the episode “Flesh and Bone”) tossed out the airlock for … no crime at all. He claimed to have planted a nuke, messed with Starbuck’s head, whispered something mean into Roslin’s ear, and for this, and nothing else, he got spaced.
[/QUOTE]
Planting a nuke is not a crime? Since then, Galactica has harbored Athena and Six without harm coming to them. Tigh and Chief are beloved members of the crew. I can understand their reticence but if they really care about the fate of the people on Galactica, they’d fess up.
[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Planting a nuke is not a crime?
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I realize he didn’t actually plant a nuke, but I think it was his overall mindfuck that he was spaced for. Adama is a Cylon? I planted a nuke, no I didn’t, taunt, sow dissent, fuck with people whose population has been decimated by you in the very recent past.
I think humans have come a long way in dealing with Cylons since then. If the 4 are outed before they can confess, it’s going to go much worse for them (justifiably), and there’s no way they don’t know that.
[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
There is no real reason to think that they would be summarily executed.
[/QUOTE]
No, but I can understand her worrying about the fine print, if I may mix my metaphors or whatever I just did.
I don’t have the time right now for a long post but I find it amusing how an episode that was getting panned as sub par on Friday is beginning to generate some really interesting discussion as people look into the layers of the story.
I would expect to see some of the same divisions amongst the final five that we see in the other seven. Some will be more compassionate and others more hard core. Tory (Thanks Opal!) seemed to me to relish her new idenity this episode. It makes me wonder if she might be the actual “leader” amongst the new four once the Cylon personalities emerge.
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant]
No, but I can understand her worrying about the fine print, if I may mix my metaphors or whatever I just did.
[/QUOTE]
I can understand being worried but… the longer they wait to tell, the more chance that, when their friends, colleagues, and loved ones find out, they WILL get tossed out an airlock. It seems like a self-fulfilling prophesy. If they still love and trust their fellow humans on Galactica, they should tell, if only because of the unintentional risk they pose ala Boomer.
But then again, I have always thought they were wrong to allow Athena to walk freely amongst them. I can completely sympathize with the humans who absolutely do not trust Cylons. They are machines who can be programmed and remotely triggered. When the survival of your species is at stake, your ability to be lenient is severely hampered.
[QUOTE=Zebra]
Those things in the painting reminded me of those ships from the original series where they meet an angel or prophet or something like that.
[/QUOTE]
Another reason why I think Starbuck was rescued by the Beings of Light (from War of the Gods) - in the original series, they not only gave Starbuck (and a few others) the directions to Earth, but snazzy all-white suits that would nicely complement the plush upholstery of new-Starbuck’s all-new Viper.
She wasn’t just “into painting starscapes” back on Caprica, but of one particular one that signified Earth, over and over. She can’t be a Cylon, but maybe she’s a fallen Being of Light just like Count Iblis. Or perhaps she became Ascended at her death/rescue, like the Traveler or Daniel Jackson or a host of other characters.
[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
I keep pointing out how they treated Sharon.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, about that… didn’t Billy die in the big hostage situation when rioting extremists wanted to kill her? I think it’s pretty clear that there are a lot of people in the fleet who would want them dead and might try all sorts of things to pursue that end. I bet Sharon is pretty limited in where she feels safe going in the fleet.
[QUOTE=OpalCat]
Yeah, about that… didn’t Billy die in the big hostage situation when rioting extremists wanted to kill her?
[/quote]
Sure, but a lot has happened since then, don’t you think?
I can’t say that either way, but Cylons should not be able to walk freely amongst humans. That doesn’t mean that the 4 are justified in keeping their secret. Not if they claim to truly care about the humans they love.
[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Sure, but a lot has happened since then, don’t you think?
[/quote]
Yeah, they were occupied and brutalized by Cylons, too.
I think that in light of the hostage thing where Billy died (especially for Tory, who replaced him, it must be pretty hard for her to forget) if I were a Cylon I wouldn’t think “oh heck, lots has happened since then, no biggie!” and out myself. No, I think I’d still be thinking “oh crap, that could happen to me. I think I’ll stay in the closet.”
[QUOTE=OpalCat]
I think that in light of the hostage thing where Billy died (especially for Tory, who replaced him, it must be pretty hard for her to forget) if I were a Cylon I wouldn’t think “oh heck, lots has happened since then, no biggie!” and out myself. No, I think I’d still be thinking “oh crap, that could happen to me. I think I’ll stay in the closet.”
[/QUOTE]
I understand why they’re doing it. They are totally freaked out and scared. However, I don’t think that, in the larger scheme of things, that excuses their secrecy. Like I said, it’s selfish and could lead to them harming the people they love.