I wouldn’t worry about suffering Billy’s fate unless I got a Summer job.
Humor aside, I move on to other difficult concepts. Several good points. The four have every reason to believe they would be whacked, either officially or by a lynch mob. OTOH. were Tigh the Cylon-hating, hard drinking still-a-human he claims to be, he should go to Adama and confess his situation. Perhaps the truly Cylon hating Tigh would ask to be infected with the virus and sacrifice himself to take out the Cylons. I’m sure there are certain bars Athena doen’t go to. 
At this point, her expression seems more than a little ambiguous.
Tory, Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders, have not committed genocide, so far as they know.
Survival is on the agenda of Tory, Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders.
Not enough.
And that’s exactly what morally justifies their secrecy. They’ve been adjudged by you as a matter of their existence, not their acts as individuals, as being unworthy of the rights of free individuals. If a black person during the Dred Scott era or a Japanese-American during World War II was able to keep his or her identity as a black person or Japanese secret, I would find that morally justified, regardless of how reasonable larger society thought it’s decision that they were dangerous to the larger society as a matter of category.
Aha! We’ve talked the charges down from “evil” to “selfish.” We’re getting somewhere.
What could happen if they don’t rat themselves out is at this point a lot more abstract than what will happen if they do. Even if it doesn’t go as far as being spaced or rape-tortured, their lives will take a sharp, unpleasant turn.
“Excuses.” “Justifies.” See, we’re getting into nuance here. It isn’t clearly eeeeeeviiiiiil.
When your survival as a free individual is at stake, your moral responsibility to “larger society” loses some of its weight.
Are you really comparing Cylons to black people? Please, can we not go there? This is a fictional TV show and I’d hate to get bogged down in analogies with real history that absolutely do not apply here. Pretty please with sugar on top.
The major difference here, which I feel I am belaboring by repeating it again, is that Cylons are machines. We have seen one of them be triggered to kill Adama against her will. This makes them dangerous in a way that they cannot control and which could be very dangerous for the human race. THIS is why they cannot walk freely among humans. It goes beyond racism and beyond prejudice. It’s a real, concrete fear of what havoc they could wreak via remote control.
I still think Tory is evil. Tigh, Chief, and Anders are being selfish. However, now that Anders is on the Pequod with Captain Starbuck, he’s really in a bind. She has said she would summarily execute him, and she’s the boss on that boat, so… he’s in a bit of a different situation now.
You have no idea what WILL happen if they do, at least the ones on Galactica. Neither do they. It’s rather ambiguous at this point, with evidence on both sides. Yes, their lives will take a sharp, unpleasant turn. They already have. That doesn’t remove their moral imperative to turn themselves in rather than continue to occupy positions of power and privilege on Galactica. If they still give a shit about the human race, that is. That’s not a given, obviously.
You can mock my opinions all you want, but I still feel as I do.
Cylons aren’t free individuals. That’s exactly my point. They are part of a larger network of machines in a way that humans are not. I bet Boomer didn’t feel too terrifically free when she shot Adama or tried to sabotage the water tanks. Cylons cannot be evaluated by the laws that govern humans because they are subject to external control and programming. This has been demonstrated in the series. This does not mean that all Cylons are going to act against humans, but it is a legitimate fear with sleeper agents.
Surely, especially if I may continue your analogy and point out that the Colonists are thinking not just about Black people, but Nat Turner.
Sorry, can’t do. Everything Moore has said about this show and, indeed, everything depicted in this show justifies treating the situations and individuals depicted with moral and ethical nuances analogous to those in human history.
Do Tory, Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders feel like machines? Do they have memories and experiences of machines? Or do they have the feelings, memories, and experiences of sentient individuals?
This is a judgement of security considerations that cannot be applied squarely to the individual moral judgments of Tigh, Tory, Tyrol, and Anders. In fact, specifically because of this judgement are they not morally compelled to turn themselves in.
It’s not mockery. I’m quite serious.
It’s easy for you to say as a non-Cylon. Tory, Tigh, Anders, And tyrol, as Cylons, are morally justified in reaching a different conclusion.
The fear on the part of non-Cylons doesn’t constitute a moral imperative to rat themselves out. Exactly the the opposite, in fact.
The point is not what the Colonials are thinking. The point is what the Final 4/5s are thinking. Should every black person curtail his own choices just in case he or she somehow turns out to be Nat Turner, contrary to his or her own personal experience?
If Nat Turner could be triggered by remote control to kill General Grant against his will, or to sabotage the Union Army, then this would be a valid comparison. No, wait, it still wouldn’t be.
Why shouldn’t we go there? It’s pretty obvious that the writers of the show are intentionally trying to make analogies and raise questions about such real-world issues as racism. Why shouldn’t we examine them as such?
Good grief. They’ve got a storyline where four people discover something about themselves that, if revealed to others, would cause them to be harmed or ostracized. And you think it’s not already bogged down with an analogy to “real history”???
I am not interested in comparing Cylons to black people, so you can have that part of the coversation without me.
I think Tory has been kinda saying she does feel like a machine. But it doesn’t matter how they feel. How did Boomer feel when she shot Adama? Did it matter that she was horrified and didn’t want to do it?
They are morally compelled to turn themselves in by the example of Boomer. I will concede that Anders has much less motivation to do so now that Starbuck has made it clear that there will be no mercy for him on her watch. The other 3 could cause the destruction of Galactica. If they care more about their individual existences, then OK. If they don’t (and Tigh and Chief at least seem not to), then in order to be morally consistent, they need to turn themselves in. Otherwise, their lip service about being the same person as they were before their discovery of their Cylon natures is bullshit.
I disagree and I will continue to do so, so maybe there’s no point in continuing this debate.
The precedent of Boomer does constitute a moral imperative for the 3 on Galactica.
I take it you are arguing the choice made by the final 4s is valid from their standpoint. In that case, yes, it would be in the best interests of, say, interred Japanese (lest we harp too much on a particular comparison) to hid their identity lest they be suspected of thwarting the war effort and be injured or killed by others.
I think if Tigh really thought he was a danger he’d put a bullet in his head. I also don’t think that crusty old fart is afraid of a lynch mob. He is afraid of betraying or hurting Adama, his life-long friend who’s watched his back for decades.
I’m not sure about the others. I can’t blame them for not turning themselves in though, at least not yet. They really don’t know the significance of what they are. Tory seems to be embracing… something. These four coming out could do almost more damage to the fleet then their remaining silent and being potential sleeper saboteurs.
If these four turn out to be archetypes of the Lords of Kobol or something, it wouldn’t surprise me they each have different views about humanity. Didn’t the original Lords of Kobol fall to in-fighting?
Yes, one of them tried to elevate himself above the others and started a civil war.
And essentially saved his life when he was going to immolate himself… in the process giving him back his purpose and self respect.
I think you’re pretty much right though. If Tigh ever really believed that he’d off Adama, he’d space himself. That’s why I was actually a bit disturbed by Tigh’s “vision” or “daydream” in which he shoots Adama. It seemed very vivid, almost hallucinatory. I don’t know if that means that Tigh really is that close to snapping, or if he’s just so worried about it, that it’s consuming him.
If it’s the latter, I see him being the one who breaks down and rats out the Final 4/5’s.
I think it was a “your wife just got shot out of an airlock, son.”
You’re right, but that’s not what happened. What happened is they were discovered to be what is, essentially, people who would be executed or lynched by the populace at large if they were discovered. HUGE difference. They’re going to die because of what they are, not what they’ve done.
And, like Sharon, they could come out and start shooting at any moment. So, they should be incarcerated…indefinitely. Unless it ends prematurely with an airlock. Probably throw in a little torture, too, since we’ve seen quite a bit of that directed at the meatbags as well.
Keep in mind that they don’t know exactly what’s up - they may or may not be standard Cylons. Dying may be a bit permanent for them. Ya wanna die and see if you’re actually immortal?
Let’s be honest, more than anything it was designed to be a “whoa!” moment for the audience. Otherwise, I think it’s safe to say that it was a waking nightmare for Tigh - kind of like his brain running away with his worst terror of what he could possibly do. Ever had a flash in your head of what would happen if the guy in the oncoming lane sneezed or decided to scratch an itch at exactly the wrong time? Kinda like that but a whole lot bigger.
Otherwise, I agree with you that it’s consuming him, just because he’s that afraid of what he might do…but, I also think that if he thought he might even possibly do that, he’d put a bullet in his brain in an instant, but being Tigh I’ll bet he’d be thorough and do the other three first.
Joe Fun Fact - Damn near married someone who looks basically identical to Rehka Sharma.
-Joe
Tell it to the judge. Hope Apollo is the attorney.
Well, Baltar has been lucky so far. I guess everyone has too much to do to hunt him down and cut his throat.
Wait…
-Joe
Just to clarify, the last quote was mine, not Troy’s
In any case, if we look at it through the lens of what the writers were trying to do, you’ve absolutely right. It was “Whoa, holy shit!” (which is what my fiancee said as we watched it) moment, and also a “ha hah, we gotcha!” moment from the writers.
But, if we look at it through the lens of Saul Tigh’s character, he had a ‘daydream’ that was so real, it took him out of a rather urgent/tense situation that demanded his attention. In short, either through fear or programming, he’s starting to crack a bit. I’ve got the idea that if things aren’t artificially brought to a head, quickly (eg. via kneeling centurion), Saul is going to start going a bit nuts. And he may very well turn a gun on himself.
Why is everyone assuming they’d be executed? I think some would want to but I can’t imagine Adama allowing it.
Again, I just cannot see torture happening, at least not to the Cylons who haven’t committed murder on Galactica. I can understand why the 4 would be worried about what would happen to them and would not blithely turn themselves over, but really, what do you think Adama would do if he found out what happened? That they didn’t know, were recently revealed to themselves, etc? Tigh and Tyrol are two of his favorite people. I think it might actually be a watershed moment for human/Cylon relationships, much the way Athena’s acceptance has been, only moreso.
Why would they think they weren’t standard Cylons? We have more information than they do.
Sure, from their POV, it would be terrifying to turn themselves in. I still think, if they were putting their concern for Galactica and the human race above self-preseveration, they would confess (Chief already knows he’s capable of hurting those he loves). Of course principles and morals go out the window when you’re scared shitless. Doesn’t make it right, just understandable. And I think they will pay a price for their secrecy.
I think Tigh is in denial. He might not be anymore if he finds out what Tory did.
I think the Anders “eye scan” incident suggests that the Cylons are now reacting differently to the final five.
I lean toward the “Tory has gone evil” view. I may be misreading the character, but she did not seem to me like someone who was reluctantly doing a bad thing for the sake of the greater good. She seemed like she had no qualms about killing Cally, and, in general, she seems intrigued by the notion of acting like a sociopath.