[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Why is everyone assuming they’d be executed? I think some would want to but I can’t imagine Adama allowing it.
[/QUOTE]
I lean more toward “lynched” or “murdered” than “executed” personally. Or at best living the rest of their lives looking over their shoulder for fear of the aforementioned.
[QUOTE=OpalCat]
I lean more toward “lynched” or “murdered” than “executed” personally. Or at best living the rest of their lives looking over their shoulder for fear of the aforementioned.
[/QUOTE]
Does Athena live her life in fear? She got a lot of crap at first but seems to have integrated into the regular life of Galactica, with Adama’s support. She was in perhaps an even worse situation, looking as she did like Boomer, who had committed several terrorist acts before she was killed.
No doubt much mischegas would ensue from the revelation. I’m not convinced it would be all bad. And it’s the right thing for them to do. Possibly also for themselves, as we watch Chief and Tigh get more and more miserable.
Does she live her life in fear? I don’t know. They don’t devote much screen time to her daily life. I’d expect, though, that she is only comfortable in the confines of Galactica and its crew full of people who know her. On another ship or–when they finally get there–Earth? I bet she’d be looking over her shoulder. Even if 95% of the population forgives her, that still leaves almost 2,000 people who don’t.
[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Again, I just cannot see torture happening, at least not to the Cylons who haven’t committed murder on Galactica. I can understand why the 4 would be worried about what would happen to them and would not blithely turn themselves over, but really, what do you think Adama would do if he found out what happened? That they didn’t know, were recently revealed to themselves, etc? Tigh and Tyrol are two of his favorite people. I think it might actually be a watershed moment for human/Cylon relationships, much the way Athena’s acceptance has been, only moreso.
[/quote]
Except, it could go either way. Adama might say “Oh my, my best friend was a Cylon all along. I love him like a brother, and will make damn sure that not one crew members does a thing to harm him.”
Or, Adama might say “Oh my Gods, Saul Tigh my best friend who I loved like a brother is gone… and those fraking Cylons murdered him and replaced him with a Cylon copy! To the airlock!”
Here’s what I’m getting at. If one of thej F4 suddenly gets an overriding urge to destroy Galactica’s FTL drive or something, and does it, they are more complicit in the crime due to their pre-knowledge of their being cylon’s. They are aware that this is a possibility, and yet they remain in their sensitive positions.
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers]
Here’s what I’m getting at. If one of thej F4 suddenly gets an overriding urge to destroy Galactica’s FTL drive or something, and does it, they are more complicit in the crime due to their pre-knowledge of their being cylon’s. They are aware that this is a possibility, and yet they remain in their sensitive positions.
[/QUOTE]
A few things:
-They aren’t necessarily acting in a manner that uses ‘out of in-character knowledge’. Remember, Boomer was only ‘activated’ before she knew she was a Cylon. Athena knows she’s a Cylon, and nobody (that we’ve seen) is afraid that she’ll snap and shoot Adama again. The Final 4/5’s may be thinking that, since they’ve realized they’re Cylons, they’re safe.
-They may feel that they’re a security risk, but be unwilling to spend the rest of their lives in a cage (probably the best case scenario) or be tossed out an airlock by an angry mob (worst case). Remember, although they’re machines, the Final Five have most likely all spent their entire lives feeling, acting and thinking like humans. They may even have been created as newborns and grown from that point. The Final 4/5’s, and maybe even all of the Final Five, are undoubtedly the most “human” of all the Cylons. And bio-survival anxiety is by far one of the most powerful motivating factors that a human can experience, and it can easily overwhelm logic.
-There also aren’t really any alternatives. Remember how hard it was to replace Apollo when he first left as CAG? Even with surviving crew of the Pegasus, I don’t think there’s anybody who would stand out as a good choice for XO. Or remember, even when Adama believed that the Chief was directly responsible (due to extreme negligence) for the bombing of the water tanks, that he couldn’t afford to lose his chief mechanic, so he allowed one of the red shirts to take the fall for the Chief? How even when the Chief was leading what was, essentially, a minor rebelling/major labor strike, that Adama couldn’t afford to lose him and so, instead, threatened Cally?
Losing the XO and the Chief would be devastating to the combat capability, and thus, the survival potential of the fleet. Even if they did come forward, assuming that they were trusted and forgiven by Adama, they’d probably still be doing their jobs. (Well, not Tory. Laura would probably consider spacing her). With that being the case, even coming clean wouldn’t, necessarily, remove them from positions in which they could do a lot of damage.
[QUOTE=TJVM]
I think the Anders “eye scan” incident suggests that the Cylons are now reacting differently to the final five.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t even see why there’s much doubt on this one. The Cylons (regular) didn’t know that the Five were with the human fleet. Now they do, so they’re acting differently. They didn’t have any way of telling until the Four activated.
Now that they have activated, I have no doubt that any of the four could stroll through a BaseStar in total safety.
-Joe
[QUOTE/]
Cylons aren’t free individuals. That’s exactly my point. They are part of a larger network of machines in a way that humans are not. I bet Boomer didn’t feel too terrifically free when she shot Adama or tried to sabotage the water tanks. Cylons cannot be evaluated by the laws that govern humans because they are subject to external control and programming. This has been demonstrated in the series. This does not mean that all Cylons are going to act against humans, but it is a legitimate fear with sleeper agents.
[/QUOTE]
This is not entirely true. The only time we have seen a Cylon externally controlled was Sharon before she knew she was a Cylon. So sleepers are the only ones in this situation. The free will is demonstrated by both Athena freely choosing to take sides with the fleet, and also Sharon voting against her fellow models during the vote. We know that the 4 are a different sort and so might be governed by a completely different set of rules. Does the fifth one have control over them? Was he/she responsible for calling them together via the music?
I think the free will aspect will play a big part in upcoming events throughout the Cylon fleet. Especially with the non-skin jobs now able to choose rather that following orders.
BTW, were all the metal toasters all over the fleet re-programed?
[QUOTE=Merijeek]
Joe Fun Fact - Damn near married someone who looks basically identical to Rehka Sharma.
[/QUOTE]
Lucky bastard! (Okay, so you could say that to anyone who is involved with someone who looks like any actress.)
[QUOTE=running piglet cheese]
BTW, were all the metal toasters all over the fleet re-programed?
[/QUOTE]
No, as I understand it, there is no reprogramming. Rather an inhibitor which prevented the highest levels of reasoning is present in the average centurion. Caprica and friends removed these inhibitors from centurions on their ship(s) this is probably why Cavil chose to try and blow them up. I assum ethe centurions in Cavil & friends basestars still have their inhibitors.
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Athena knows she’s a Cylon, and nobody (that we’ve seen) is afraid that she’ll snap and shoot Adama again.
[/QUOTE]
Not to start a debate about whether deleted scenes should be regarded as canon, but just for your consideration:
The recently released season-three DVD set includes a deleted scene from an episode close to the end of the season wherein Athena rather bluntly confronts another character about anti-Cylon prejudice. It’s the third-to-last episode, the one introducing Romo Lampkin, with the secondary plot about somebody trying to kill anyone helping Baltar by setting explosive boobytraps, including one on the raptor Athena is getting ready to fly from Galactica to Colonial One. The scene has Athena walking up to somebody working alone on the flight deck and saying (paraphrased) “I know you mistrust and hate Cylons, and I know you think I set those bombs myself, either deliberately or under remote control.” Then she hands over her sidearm: “If you really think I’m a threat, then kill me.” The other person can’t do it, so Athena takes her gun back and says, “You don’t have to like me, but if you aren’t going to do anything about it, then keep your frakking feelings to yourself.”
Obviously, the writers liked this moment, so after the scene was deleted, they recycled the basic idea in the second episode of season four by having Starbuck hand her weapon to Roslin with the same general argument. And because the scene was removed (and its premise reused), it’s debatable whether or not the incident actually “happened” in any sense. However, it does illuminate what the writers are thinking about in terms of their world, and I’d be surprised if the notion of Athena’s ongoing challenges doesn’t manifest itself again at some point.
(Oh, and just for added grins and giggles? The person Athena confronts? is Cally.)
Does he mean to say that having a goal other than power for its own sake is more dangerous?
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
A few things:
-They aren’t necessarily acting in a manner that uses ‘out of in-character knowledge’. Remember, Boomer was only ‘activated’ before she knew she was a Cylon. Athena knows she’s a Cylon, and nobody (that we’ve seen) is afraid that she’ll snap and shoot Adama again. The Final 4/5’s may be thinking that, since they’ve realized they’re Cylons, they’re safe.
[/QUOTE]
That’s the thing. We’re in uncharted waters here.
The Four are thinking they know they’re Cylons so they can enjoy the same free will that Athena has demonstrated. That’s probably correct, but…
Sharon was the sleeper who lived as a human, joined the military, made friends, learned to be a Raptor pilot, etc.
Athena is a copy who claims she’s always known she’s a Cylon and therefore has free will and can be trusted to make her own decisions yet her entire persona is a copy. She never joined the military and learned to be a Raptor pilot. She just got a copy of all those memories and experiences.
The Four are something different; they’re something in-between a Sharon and an Athena. They’re sleepers who amassed all the memories and experiences of that model’s persona, but they haven’t always known they were Cylons like Athena who just downloaded a whole lifetime of memories.
So, the Four can’t really be sure if they’re more like programmed Sharon or copied free will-having Athena.
Does that make sense?
[QUOTE=levdrakon]
So, the Four can’t really be sure if they’re more like programmed Sharon or copied free will-having Athena.
Does that make sense?
[/QUOTE]
Yes, makes sense to me. Tory says something to the effect of: “We’re not like other Cylons…” to Cally in the airlock. They are all still obviously trying to figure it all out, as are we.
Sometimes I’m not sure what I like more…watching the actual show or coming in here to join the discussions!!
[QUOTE=HelloKitty]
Sometimes I’m not sure what I like more…watching the actual show or coming in here to join the discussions!!
[/QUOTE]
Tell me about it! I’ve been reading the BSG threads (it’s the only show I watch) since season 2. I finally couldn’t take it anymore and had to start posting!
[QUOTE=Frazzled]
Tell me about it! I’ve been reading the BSG threads (it’s the only show I watch) since season 2. I finally couldn’t take it anymore and had to start posting!
[/QUOTE]
Welcome! I’ve enjoyed your posts.
Stay out of those stupid goat newbie threads, and hang out here. 
[QUOTE=HelloKitty]
Yes, makes sense to me. Tory says something to the effect of: “We’re not like other Cylons…” to Cally in the airlock. They are all still obviously trying to figure it all out, as are we.
[/quote]
I thought Tory was bullshitting Cally to win her confidence, get a hold of the baby, and then shoot her ass out the airlock. That’s how it came off to me. Tory also seems to be experiencing some sensory and emotional differences between before and after she learned she was a Cylon. How much of that is purely psychological and how much is an actual biological/neurological change is unknown.
These discussions certainly cause me to question my assumptions and views of what things mean.
Also, just wondering:
We don’t know for sure that Athena really has free will, do we? She thinks she does, but she might be just being allowed to be on a really long leash. I have always wondered about that; it doesn’t make sense to me that they could trigger Boomer (twice–and the water tanks sabotage was a pretty complex order and not just “Shoot now!”) but not Athena. Do we know who decided to trigger Boomer? Was it that specific iteration of Sharon that had some remote device built it, or is it a feature of all Cylons? Why wouldn’t they have put it into Athena when she resurrected when rescuing Hera? I guess I’m wondering if we have any information on how the remote control mechanism works. It’s a pretty major strike against the concept of Cylon free will IMO.
[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
We don’t know for sure that Athena really has free will, do we?
[/QUOTE]
A good point, particularly since her behavior is at the whim of script writers.
[QUOTE=Cervaise]
“If you really think I’m a threat, then kill me.” The other person can’t do it, so Athena takes her gun back and says, “You don’t have to like me, but if you aren’t going to do anything about it, then keep your frakking feelings to yourself.”… (Oh, and just for added grins and giggles? The person Athena confronts? is Cally.)
[/QUOTE]
Oh, that is delicious. I wish they’d kept that in - or at the very least, that they’d included it on the Season 3 DVDs in Australia.
[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
I thought Tory was bullshitting Cally to win her confidence, get a hold of the baby, and then shoot her ass out the airlock. That’s how it came off to me. Tory also seems to be experiencing some sensory and emotional differences between before and after she learned she was a Cylon. How much of that is purely psychological and how much is an actual biological/neurological change is unknown.
[/QUOTE]
…Probably one thing we can all agree on is that Tory WAS evil in that she waited for Cally to wake up and then shot her ass out the airlock. She could have snapped her neck while she was unconscious, or she could have airlocked her while she was still unconscious.
But, no, she waited for her to wake up and become completely aware how screwed she was before spacing her.
-Joe