Better Call Saul (Season 3)

Cafe Society
661

Right. And if I were Kim, I’d have a lot of internal conflict over the whole mess that led her to starting her own practice. Sure, she’s affording her own place, and has a good client, but it’s a SINGLE client. And she’s not their in-house lawyer with multiple projects, either. It’s a one-time gig sitting atop an ethical house of cards. She doesn’t have time to diversify or even sell herself–she’s not even remotely interested in covering a bit of Jimmy’s clientele on the side (which is what really made me stop and think about this). What I wouldn’t do as Kim is snap at my one client and make them doubt any part of my professionalism, especially on an issue that touches on her frigile state of employment.

Hey, I was curious if Jimmy could ethically work for Kim as a paralegal while his license is suspended (answer seems to be probably, as long as he was staying within a limited scope of doing research and helping to write briefs, etc.)…and I found some real world tidbits y’all might find interesting!

From the New Mexico Bar Association:

This may apply to Chuck eventually:"Regarding mitigating factors in disciplinary actions, (neither mental nor physical infirmity provides a defense to charges of professional misconduct); (pressures of practice of law provide neither an excuse nor a mitigating factor for deceit; dishonest conduct by lawyers will not be tolerated);(mental disability of attorney can be considered in mitigation of disciplinary action only if attorney’s recovery from condition can be demonstrated by meaningful and sustained period of successful rehabilitation; attorney’s chronic depression cannot be considered as mitigating factor in imposing appropriate discipline for pattern of neglecting client matters and failing to communicate with clients, where attorney admits that he still suffers from mental disability and that his counselor concludes that practicing law aggravates depression; mental disability, such as depression, can only mitigate discipline of attorney if it can be demonstrated that condition is no longer likely to result in harm to public); (where there is some evidence that factors over which attorney had no control may have contributed to misconduct or that rehabilitation could be effected, court will hesitate to impose ultimate sanction of disbarment). "

And THIS bit reminds me of Jimmy’s hearing:*"Matter of Treinen, 2006-NMSC-013, 139 N.M. 318, 131 P.3d 1282. The Supreme Court reviewed a disciplinary recommendation from the Disciplinary Board for an attorney who was given conditional discharge after entering a plea of no contest to one count of misdemeanor battery. The Court rejected an argument that conditional discharge precludes the Court from imposing discipline against an attorney in violation of the New Mexico Rules of Professional Conduct.

In general, attorneys on probation are not permitted to practice law. However, the Court found a “very limited” exception applied in Matter of Treinen, supra. A court will review each case on its merits and will not automatically offer a deferred sanction for every conditional discharge. Furthermore, for an exception to apply, the record must be clear that the continued practice of law by the respondent-attorney will in no way endanger either the public or the reputation of the profession. Relevant factors in favor of granting the exception in this case included: 1) the fact that prohibiting the attorney’s practice of law would harm the public because the attorney provided highly needed services to the poor and disadvantaged; 2) the attorney was highly unlikely to repeat any violent conduct; 3) the attorney took the initiative to seek, and successfully complete, counseling and treatment to address his behavioral problems; 4) the attorney was sincerely remorseful and took full responsibility for his actions; 5) the attorney was cooperative throughout the proceedings; 6) the attorney had no previous history of disciplinary complaints or criminal conduct; and 7) the trial judge and Disciplinary Board recommended against suspension."*

Here’s a link to the Matter of Treinen, 2006. TLDR: sounds like the lawyer got drunk and assaulted a family member, even keeping them from leaving the house, etc. New Mexico Bar Association strongly recommended that he be allowed to still keep practicing, since it was a first offense and he served a poor and underprivileged sector. I don’t know if he was in the same niche back then, but it looks likehe’s some kind of small-debt lawyernow, protecting clients against predatory lenders and the like.

Anyway, sounds like Jimmy had the book thrown at him…though there was the matter of the contents of the tape, of course.

662

I’ve got a feeling that Kim doesn’t want Jimmy within a mile of Mesa Verde.

ETA: Plus Jimmy wouldn’t want Kim’s “charity” - remember he wouldn’t even let her pay for the Cinese takeout.

Note that this does not say that Chuck’s “mental infirmity” is grounds for disbarment, just that he can’t use the “mental infirmity” as a defense if he is brought up on charges of professional misconduct.

663

Heh, I was going to say that I wondered why Jimmy helping out on her side wasn’t brought up even in a reluctant “Please-say-no” fashion (from either of them), then I realized I didn’t know if it was even legal. Not that that would necessarily stop him from trying, obviously. Yeah, I wouldn’t want Jimmy touching it any further, either. I did think that maybe he could be helping Kim look for her next clients, however (how long is that Mesa Verde thing supposed to last?). Not that, you know, she’d want a TV commercial or anything…

As for charity, I wouldn’t see it that way. She’s a little old to be pulling all-nighters at work on the regular…looks like she could use an assistant for “document review.” :slight_smile:

Regarding Chuck, I wasn’t thinking that he would be disbarred for anything. I was looking at it from the standpoint of the mistakes he (supposedly) made with Mesa Verde, and actually surprised that HHM has let him work in his odd fashion. I mean, the guy hasn’t been able to even double-check something via phone or computer, nor call someone to help or pass of tasks to. It would be a big surprise if he hadn’t made any errors. I imagine he will be under greater scrutiny when the malpractice firm does some homework.

664

I’m not sure she can afford to hire anyone. She wanted to downsize once Jimmy couldn’t support his 50% and let the secretary go.

665

That’s been bugging me a little actually. These guys were going to hire HHM. Kim could definitely charge enough to pay for extra help and office space without any argument, istm.

666

She has to be making decent money off Mesa Verde. Her suggesting they move and let the secretary go was for practical purposes and in consideration of Jimmy’s circumstances. Without his practice, neither the location nor the secretary were necessary for her purposes. She would have been much better off leasing one small office in a large building and hiring a legal assistant instead of continuing to pay so much for having a building to themselves and a secretary with no callers/visitors to handle.

Her stress level (and his!) would not be so high at this point if she had just insisted they downsize.

667

I think this was a critical moment for Jimmy, and not in a good way. We’ve seen him scam people with lies before, we’ve seen him shuck and jive and talk fast and play fast and loose with the truth. We’ve seen him construct an elaborate document fraud to screw his brother over. But in that office he was confronting some major truths about his relationships with Kim and Chuck, and the way his life was spiralling out of control. And he took these truths and used them to screw his brother over. It was the most cynical, even soulless, that we’ve ever seen him. Those realisations could have been the basis for a moment of redemption as he honestly confronted the reality of where his actions had taken him. Instead, they just became a weapon to use to tear Chuck down. There’s no actual gain for Jimmy in that. He’s not helping himself at all.

I’m looking forward to Cinnabon Gene. Not because I’m not interested in Breaking Bad Saul, but because after one show tracing a man’s fall into the moral pit, I’m very interested to see one where he climbs back out. And Gene’s intervention with the shoplifter, shouting at him to get a lawyer, might just indicate that this could happen.

668

I agree with your first paragraph. But Jimmy’s point, which I believe is valid, is that she can’t unilaterally insist on that as long as he is keeping up his end of the bargain. It’s none of her business, ultimately, how he pays for his end–as long as he can continue to do so.

I think I mentioned upthread that an attorney in my city has been indefinitely suspended (he was involved in some shady stuff with an ultra-right wing PAC) and he has tried every year or so for the past couple years to get reinstated but no dice. He works as a paralegal at his old law firm. Behind closed doors, everyone’s assuming that he is helping with legal strategy and so on, as he was considered a pretty sharp lawyer when still practicing.

Yes, to all of this!

669

Many solo lawyers share resources. They will essentially each rent their individual office in a larger suite of offices, and they share receptionists, conference rooms, copiers, etc.

But yeah - for MV to have been considering HHM, it is pretty ridiculous to imagine Kim handling it solo.

670

Here’s a cite that a tree named Hyperion is the tallest tree in the world. What is the world's tallest tree? | Live Science . It’s about as relevant to the dispute as your cite, because I have not made any claim about whether Kim could be questioned or disputed your claim that she couldn’t. I want a cite for your claim that knowing that something is true has a special definition for lawyers, and I don’t believe you’re going to find one.

No, I did not claim that she was guilty of committing the specific Federal crime of Suborning Prejury, which has a lot of conditions that aren’t relevant here. This is a bit more relevant: legal ethics | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

Note that it uses ‘knows’ in a general sense, there isn’t a special ‘someone can only know a fact if someone else can prove that they know it’ condition that I’m aware of. She knows that Jimmy’s testimony that he didn’t modify the documents is false, therefore she’s guilty of this violation even though it can’t actually be proven unless she confesses to it.

I never made any claim that she could be convicted of this crime. If I murder someone with no witnesses and destroy all of the physical evidence, then I couldn’t be convicted of murder because there’s no evidence to prove it, but that doesn’t magically mean that I didn’t murder someone, or that I wouldn’t know that I murdered someone.

I think it’s pretty pointless to continue this conversation, you don’t want to acknowledge the difference between “Kim knows Jimmy altered documents” and other semi-random statements like “Kim could be asked whether she knows in various settings,” or “Kim could be convicted of Federal Prejury charges”.

671

Maybe so, but I was hoping to see you respond to DSeid’s similar point.

672

Yeah, Kim isn’t wanting to ditch Francesca because she can’t afford it, she just has little use for a secretary or big waiting room. Jimmy needed a waiting room and front desk person because he handles a lot of small jobs. He runs commercials and gets tons of people coming in for a few hours of work getting a will written or some paperwork sorted out, so he needs someone to answer calls and greet people while they wait.

Kim doesn’t have new clients, all she does is work on Mesa Verde. She can just use voicemail or her cell to keep up with them, they don’t need to leave a message with a person or be encouraged to make an appointment. If MV hadn’t gone through then she probably would need a secretary and waiting area because she’d be doing things more like Jimmy, soliciting small clients and doing one-off jobs until she got something big. As it is, her ideal would really be to ditch the overly large space, get a small 2-room office, and hire some kind of legal assistant (paralegal, lawyer without much experience) to help with the MV work. Paying a full time person just to make coffee isn’t really sensible.

673

DSeid made an assertion with nothing to back it up, I’ve already asserted that Kim knows and offered evidence from the show. There’s nothing substantive to respond to, if a person wants to ignore the evidence of the show or use a wildly non-standard definition of knowledge, they’re not going to be swayed by me repeating myself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

674

Wildly non-standard? Really? :dubious:

From my American Heritage Dictionary (5th Ed.):

Looks to me like DSeid’s application follows this definition quite well:

675

Well why hasn’t she? Why is she sleeping in her office and car because she’s working so much? They sure seem to be portraying it as if she can’t afford it.

676

Yes, your whole thing about bar-knowledge vs real knowledge is wildly non-standard, and not supported in any legal reference I’ve ever seen. I note that you’ve managed to provide a cite for someone else’s definition, but not the one I asked for.

My position is that Kim grasps in her mind with clarity and certainty that Jimmy modified the documents. Therefore, she she knows that he did by the definition that you posted, and indeed by the common and legal definitions of the word. This has degenerated into an English 101 discussion, and I don’t do those anymore because they are extremely boring.

677

Yes. It was pure malice. And it may be fair to say it was Jimmy’s ‘breaking bad’ moment.

(I agree with your entire post–particularly about the possibilities inherent in the Gene time-frame–but wanted to zero in on the bit quoted above.)

678

How are they portraying that she can’t afford it? I haven’t seen any mention of money troubles from her at all. She doesn’t appear to have any difficulty paying for half of the overly large office space or her half of Francesca’s salary. In real terms, since it would be normal for a lawyer to bill a high hourly rate for this kind of work, the fact that she’s working a lot means she should be bringing in a ton of money from MV. If she’s not, she’s far less competent at the legal profession than she’s been portrayed - quick googling suggests the typical hourly rate for NM attorney legal work is $200 (in 2011), and this was presented as a sweetheart deal for her, so lots of billable hours should mean LOTS of cash.

Why hasn’t she hired anyone yet? She’s a workaholic and perfectionist who doesn’t like asking for help, like a lot of other people on the show. We saw earlier how hesitant she was to actually hire a receptionist and how much interviewing and background checking she wanted to do, and a receptionist requires a lot less trust than a legal assistant. Bringing someone in to help out is a big decision that she would take a lot of time on, and up until now she could blame her lack of time on helping with Jimmy’s case. I don’t think it’s been that long in the show that she’s been short of sleep either; I think it’s only been maybe a month since she actually started working for MV, and IIRC it’s only been this episode that we’ve seen her doing things like sleeping in the car.

679

Now this I agree with. She is sleeping in the office and the car simply because she doesn’t have time to go home.

680

I’m a power napper who rarely gets more than 5 hours of sleep at night–not by design; it’s just how my body rhythms work (I don’t stay up longer than I need to, and never set an alarm clock). I’m usually good to go most days, but when I am a little tired, I will take a power nap–again, totally unregulated (no alarm) and rarely lasting more than 10 minutes. But it does wonders.

I’ll admit I’m a weirdo, though.