The key word here is fetus, not baby.
Since fetuses aren’t counted on census forms, I’d say it’s logical to also disclude them from death tallies.
Dear Aldebaran:
I hope you don’t get mad at me. I like you, because you have fire; thus you remind me of an Iraqi classmate in the Goethe Institut where I spent one summer to pick up some German language skill on a scholarship like him.
I forgot his name now, but I remember that I had to be extra careful with him after the first encounter; because he tended to be very argumentative, even when I had nothing in mind except some polite attempts at conversation. For example, one morning I greeted him; “Good Morning, sir; how would the weather be today in your country?“ We were in Arolsen, where Napoleon was supposed to have spent one night on passage there; the local weather is normally rainy and overcast. He reacted to my greeting with a challenge to me to prove to him that Iraq does not have as much rain as Germany. And he appeared rather worked up.
Anyway, Aldebaran, let me try to find out exactly what you want to debate about. I myself don’t go for debating; because I don’t subscribe to the idea that I or anyone should start any discussion with already an unchangeable position – unless of course we are into a purely academic exercise. For me Great Debates here is essentially about exchange of views and information, with the aim for all of us, or at least for me, to learn something new or different, even to the correction of my ignorance or the exposure of my biases.
So, let me bring out the bare-bone of your contention in the very first post where you opened your thread: Bible Waver Invasion of Iraq.
For the purpose I will recall my philosophy days in the Catholic university where I did my liberal arts studies, namely, to proceed with the following questions when analyzing a report: quis, quid, ubi, quibus auxiliis, cur, quomodo, quando.
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Quis or who: Bush and his Christian sect;
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Quid or what: Christian proselytization work;
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Ubi or where: in Iraq;
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Quibus auxiliis or by what means: military activities and occupation;
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Cur or why: making Iraqis abandon Islam to embrace Christianity;
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Quomodo or how: convincing them that they will go to hell otherwise;
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Quando or when: even before the U.S. military attack was launched, and still ongoing.
Now, some posters here claim that your thread does not belong to Great Debates; but since Gaudere the Moderator has not transferred it elsewhere; then it must belong here. So I will put in my two cents worth of my own observations.
Before anything else, be calm and keep a lid on your ardor (as I think Gaudere would tell us – I love that lady, and all women; they are my mothers, grandmothers, aunts, sisters, daughters, and of course, wife).
Ok, here goes. Each of the seven items above which you allege can be a debate topic in each own right. But they are all connected. To all appearances, prescinding from your ardor, the principal thrust of your thread is the campaign of Christian proselytization on Iraqi Muslims in the wake of the war on Iraq and taking opportunity of the war.
If you are an Iraqi living in Iraq during the time of Saddam Hessein, was Christian proselytization from any Christian church or denomination or persuasion being carried on however small the scale but openly? Please answer that question.
What I know from a habit of reading current history as reported in journalistic literature is that Iraq under Saddam Hussein was unique among Muslim countries – and it is not the only one, though – in that there was and still is flourishing a Christian populace of native Iraqis, among whom was Minister Aziz.
What then is your grievance? The way I see it, being human and being a Muslim, you do like it. U.S. Christians would not like it either if Muslim missionaries should en masse cross over to the U.S. homeland, and go about massively and systematically proselytizing Christians, to make them give up Christianity and take up Islam. But Muslims would not do that; for they know it’s a fruitlessly futile work. Occupy yourself on the reasons why, imaging yourself an American citizen and a Christian at that.
It is tough on you: Americans engaged in proselytizing Muslims in Iraq; but remember that’s the fact of life, see that in the history of religion and politics and military conquests, they all go together: each helping the other.
What I can foresee is that Iraq, owing to the regime change being pursued with determination by Bush and company, and most probably even after Bush, will eventually unless they let up turn Iraq into a land where Christian churches of all kinds and organizations will have more than just a toe hold – just like the Central American and South American countries today.
If it’s any consolation to you, the vast majority of Iraqis would continue to be Muslims, just as in Central and South Americas the vast majorities are Roman Catholic. Now, if you would be an armchair sociologist, you can see that the children of Iraqi converts to Christianity will occupy positions of prestige, wealth, cultural, commercial, and political influence in Iraq.
What Iraqi Muslims should do is to go forth to Africa and converts the black peoples there to Islam. It is my suspicion that Islam is making much more converts there than any other religion. That is another study for you as an amateur sociologist.
My advice to you for your own personal introspection, consider making yourself a postgraduate Muslim, as yours truly am one; then you will not feel so bad about your countrymen being enticed by American missionaries to give up Islam and convert to the Christian faith.
Susma Rio Sep
PS: Take courage, the U.S. might still depart from Iraq, what with the guerrilla war against them apparently on the uprise
If you are an Iraqi living in Iraq during the time of Saddam Hessein, was Christian proselytization from any Christian church or denomination or persuasion being carried on however small the scale but openly? Please answer that question.
I’m not at all an Iraqi citizen.
And yes, there is a Christian minority (less then 3% of the population is not Muslim and among that 3% are some Christians) and I did never hear of any proselytising done by them.
What I know from a habit of reading current history as reported in journalistic literature is that Iraq under Saddam Hussein was unique among Muslim countries – and it is not the only one, though – in that there was and still is flourishing a Christian populace of native Iraqis, among whom was Minister Aziz.
No, that is not unique at all in Muslim countries; there are non-Muslims in every Muslim nation and most of the time their situation is not of any other kind then the situation of any minority worldwide. (And most of the time much better = very different then what you understand by “minorities”).
What do you think of it that in a Muslim nation a Jew is member of the government in the post of Minister (I guess you call that Secretary of State), while there are besides the synagoges for the Jewish citizens also Christian churches and Cathedral for the Christian citizens and at least one Christian convent ( there can be more, I only vistied one)where the nuns who live there are very respected in the nearby village and the whole region.
I suppose that picture - which is a real one - doesn’t suit quite well in the prejudiced incomplete view most Americans (and other people who aren’t familiar with the issue) picture themselves of a nation where Islam is the State Religion and where 98 % of the population is Muslim, no?
What I can foresee is that Iraq, owing to the regime change being pursued with determination by Bush and company, and most probably even after Bush, will eventually unless they let up turn Iraq into a land where Christian churches of all kinds and organizations will have more than just a toe hold – just like the Central American and South American countries today.
Well no, that is never going to happen. You seem to have no idea about it that Islam is not a religion one changes by going shopping in the religion shop at the corner (that is how I call the amazing ability of people, especially in the USA, to hop from one religion or sect to an other until they find one the ‘suits” them). Islam is inseparable from the individual. It is a religion that is at the same time a way of life with prescriptions for every step and for every action, because everything you do is related to God and your devotion to Him. That way of life became since the very beginning of Islam part of the different cultures in the different Muslim nations. No outside influence is going to change that. These are societies with their cultural and social patterns fixed in and by Islam.
That is why the invasion of such fanatic proselytisers does so much damage in such communities and can count only on hostile and life dangerous reactions. That is also one of the reasons why some regimes in Islamic nations forbid such people to enter the country and endanger the social structure with their activities. They don’t come to “change religion”. They come at the same time to destroy a way of life in a culture where people since thousands of years survived thanks to their strong family ties and through that family their tribal ties. You have to see this in that perspective, but if you have no idea how such a society works and how intertwined everything and everyone is with all the rest, you can have no idea of what I try to explain, I know.
If it’s any consolation to you, the vast majority of Iraqis would continue to be Muslims, just as in Central and South Americas the vast majorities are Roman Catholic. Now, if you would be an armchair sociologist, you can see that the children of Iraqi converts to Christianity will occupy positions of prestige, wealth, cultural, commercial, and political influence in Iraq.
Well that may be your dream, but it wont be. You don’t transfer a completely foreign and completely opposite culture into a nation with a history and culture that is thousands and thousands of years old and with a majority of 97% Muslim who live Islam. Read above.
What Iraqi Muslims should do is to go forth to Africa and converts the black peoples there to Islam. It is my suspicion that Islam is making much more converts there than any other religion. That is another study for you as an amateur sociologist.
Islam is not a religion of active proselytising. That is forbidden. It is blasphemy to even think that God needs simple humans to be known. It is only a command to inform the best way you can those people who ask and are seeking their way to God. Or to address them to people who can inform them. That is one of the main differences between Islam and the intrusive aggressive Christian proselytisers who see it as a command to swarm out all over the globe to shovel their doctrines uninvited and unwanted down to peoples throats.
By the way: I’m not an amateur sociologist. Sociology was part of my education at the university. ( And so was Latin 
)
My advice to you for your own personal introspection, consider making yourself a postgraduate Muslim, as yours truly am one; then you will not feel so bad about your countrymen being enticed by American missionaries to give up Islam and convert to the Christian faith.
Like I said, I’m not in the least an Iraqi citizen. I have a doctorate as Arabist which of course includes Islamic studies and Islamic History studies. So in that perspective I’m authorized to give classes about all the related subjects.
Aldebaran
You can always tell when a thread is heading for a train wreck when it degenerates into an argument about what the thread is actually about. Unfortunately it was inevitable in this case, given how poorly the OP was constructed.
So, lest I am diverted by any of the other proceeding posts, let my return to th OP. (OP, for Aldebaran benefit is this board’s short hand for Original Post, i.e. yours. If you don’t understand you only have to ask.)
Ok, if we put to one side the ‘butchering’ comment what may or may not be true, but is circumstantial to what you claim you wish to discuss, usually SDMB (Straight Dope Message Board) policy is to provide cites when stating such things. If you don’t provide you’re liable to get asked. How does it ‘seem’ ? Is this just the talk of Bible-bashers? As has been explained, Bible-bashers are great at talk about how they are going to straighten out the world, but that’s all it counts as. Talk. Are there any indications that they will be permitted to enter the country? Iraqi is still under military command, do you believe the military will allow these bible-bashers into the country if they believed they were likely to just stir up trouble?
All said, your very first sentence raises more questions than facts and provides very unsecure ground for the foundations of any debate.
You are an intelligent person, Aldebaran. You therefore know that this paragraph is littered with personal opinion masquerading as fact and is a rant based on events you have either not shown to have occurred, or that are just imaginations of events that have yet to occur. Either way, just what debate to you expect to raise? One on US actions in Iraqi? Have we not strayed into rather a larger topic than the bible-bashers you started with? Which of these two rather unequal issues do you wish us to tackle? If you wish to hit your readers with point after point without an expectation of analysis or discussion of each one then you have what we regard in the SDMB as a rant, in which case you are in the wrong forum.
Or do you wish us to debate your imaginations of what might happen when the bible bashers arrive? An event you have yet to convince anyone will happen?
Finally, we reach something that appears to be the start of a debate. Unfortunately it takes as fact the two proceeding paragraphs which, as we have decided, fall way short of being so. It also stereotypes the supposed actions and temprement of those involved and concludes by addressing everyone as ‘all doomed’, rather suggesting you have also lumped your readers and Bible-bashers into one humogenious christian mass. Something you’ll find to be very much a mistake.
I therefore urge you to reread your OP and apply the same critical faculties you’d give an academic paper. You will see that you question:
- Fails to cite or prove its factual basis.
- Digresses off the point.
- Fails to make clear its purpose.
- Contains opinion quoted as fact.
- Insults both its subject matter and its readership.
Care to try again?
Make you can read the post above yours to gain some insight in the situation I describe that is most likely to devellop when Bible Waving Christians Fanatics arrive.
As for your question for “sources”. I know many people have some form of dependence on “sources” available on the internet, yet for myself as historian that doesn’t count.
When I ever give a link to such “source” it is with great precaution and in the hope people will think of it that these are not “sources” but merely information reflecting personal experiences and/or opinions of the writer. And this counts also for websites of the Media.
Further I don’t rely on English languaged information, and come to my view on things relying on more then one of those reports, naturally. This implicates that even if I decide these or one of these as being trustworthy enough to give it as “source”, it shall come to you in a foreign language.
And about my OP: I agree it is a bit disturbing in its structure and wording. In my defense I can say that it was written when I was tired and then I have my twinbrother Dyslexia looking over my shoulder to attack and take over.
If I continue to post on this website, you’ll see flagrant discrepancies appearing in both structure, wording and coherence of my posts. I know that can be confusing, yet there is little to nothing I can change about that.
Aldebaran.
Thinking about where I saw anything related to the subject on an English page…
Well, Aldebaran, I wish you good posting.
And I really enjoy your expostulations.
Do you Muslims pray for each other, as Christians do, and also in ecumenical praying? I am sure you do.
In which case, let’s pray together:
**
Time for a comic relief but in a cynical manner. There is this one account about God’s reaction when He looked at Adam whom He had made to His own image and likeness. I guess all of us: Jews, Christians, Muslims, we know that narrative in the first page of Genesis:
**
To everyone here, carry on. This is better than shooting and burning, for insisting on our views.
Susma Rio Sep
MMM… an other trainload of vitriol…
Disappointments coming:
**You debate facts.
Yes and you try to impress with throwing some “insults”.
**Vicious – Opinion
No, conviction since I’m convinced they are in their goals.
**Proselytizing – Opinion
No, fact. How come you doubt that proselytizing is the goal and the life of proselytizers?
Lunatics – Opinion
No, proved to me by their behaviour and related. Of course you can have an other perception.
Bad Grammar – A fact
True.
By the by, are you French?
Not French in the very least. Try again please.
**Here are some facts:
Lost WWII
Capitulated with Nazis
Vichy Government had widespread popular support**
All the above utterly irrelevant.
**Now there are some fact you can debate!
I don’t see any. Maybe you have other eyes then I do.
Aldebaran.
Susma,
Nice post, thank you… A bit of humour mixed with seriousness is always an irresistable recipe.
Aldebaran.
Found an article in English about Bible Wavers Ready For Iraq. Different sects, same goals.
You should go to the website of the 10/40 window. It is outrageous in its denigrating patronizing arrogance, but it is at the same time hilarious when you come to read their fake “touching conversion stories”. With every line they write there, they prove to have not even a notice of the religion they claim to have “conquered”.
Aldebaran.article one
Aldebaran.article two
Aldebaran.
mmmmmm…I think I’m going to create a signature…
Any one knows how you can place an emoticon figure out of msn/hotmail on the board (have no clue if that is possible, remember that I’m illiterate)
Hear, hear! I agree with this completely. Aldebaran, politically, I’m on your side, personally; I don’t want to be anywhere near you.
Freyr…
Eum, sorry to point it out to you that your post follows directly mine… So I’m afraid that you are in the virtual world closer to me then you express you want to be.
But no panic: I have vast basements and private caves where you can hide. I never go there. I would be a skeleton before I find my way out. Maybe you’ll meet a Taliban or two or maybe OBL in company of Saddam, but no panic once again: they are disarmed and constantly under influence of the cannabis I grow there secretly as my major unknown source of income.
How else do you think I manage to have a PC and internet access?
I tell you: it wouldn’t be possible if I wouldn’t be who I am.
Aldebaran.
Well, Aldebaran, shall we stick to the issue of proselytization by Christians of Iraqis on the opportunity of US occupation of Iraq?
I for one am not happy about what will certainly take place, the proselytization. On the other hand, the whole world is a free market of religion as of ideas. If modern man is anything, and I claim to be one, he is neutral about what people follow what religion, just so long as they don’t resort to force and dishonesty in the practice of their religion, and certainly not in its propagation.
What about you in this respect? Are you a modern man?
Susma Rio Sep
Susma,
It has not to do with being “modern” or being not “modern”.
It has to do with having a religion, a culture, a society and not being in any need for others to invade and disturb the whole.
I think I made that clear in an other post.
Iraq is not America, is not an other Western country and has its own very proud and very ancient culture and heritage and its own unique society that is intertwined with Islam the way I described.
No one has the right to destroy peoples country, like nobody has any right to destroy people’s religion, peoples community and peoples culture, which form their past their present and their future.
And in no way can any other culture impose itself on others and think that is their RIGHT and think every one has to be like they are.
I’m sorry, but while there are certainly dark pages in Islamic history, the history of Europe and of Christianity which were very much intertwined at several moments of their history, is one of blood, destruction, force, slavery and utterly arrogance.
Christianity has a bloody record of death and destruction of people and their cultures.
Islam had certainly bloody pages in its history, but caused no deliberate destruction of cultures at all. They were respected and used at first, became later absorbed and part of the diversity you still can find among the Muslim nations.
The West has some unhealthy obsessional idea that the whole world forcibly needs to become like they are.
Sorry, it is not going to happen without the West being in the need to first murder once again thousands and thousand of people like they did before.
Salaam.
Aldebaran.
Actually, the truth is this could more accurately be said about Islam.
Now, we will not get anywhere blaming each other, or this or that religion. Important, very important for all men of good will and intelligence, is to learn from the horrors of the past, and to work together for peace and harmony, and may I use that word, love, among mankind, rising above religion.
Somebody tells us that “homo natus est inter faeces et urinam”, man is born between feces and urine (faeces, or is it stercora?); and I always remind these kinds of people to not stay there, but to rise up and keep clean and neat, and look at the stars.
Now, to be very brutal and thereby earn the hatred of religious people, I will say this: religion is of the feces and urine level. Let’s all rise above it. At least for my part, I am a postgraduate religious guy – the good of religion, and none of its horrors and banes for me.
You will notice if you exercise your observation faculty that there are a good many people here who are against the war on Iraq, and against also the agenda of Christians to preach to Iraqis. You can join us, to protest against war and violence and disregard of other people’s culture, of which of course religion is a part of.
So, we are both, at least you and I, agreed that the U.S. should not favor missionaries to work in Iraq. Not favor, but it cannot or will not stop them, just as it cannot or will not stop Americans and others from doing business in Iraq, or settling down in Iraq and living the way they want to there, not after the mighty USA has opened up this country to multi-culturalism, even by acting most unilaterally to take over the country.
Susma Rio Sep
There is no way Americans (or any one else for that matter) shall be able to change the thousands of years old heritage, culture and way of life to replace it with some satellite culture of the USA or the West in general.
As long as people fail to see that attempts to do this will only get back at them, there will be no understanding possible between those two cultures.
You still fail to see that the world doesn’t need to be a copy of the USA or the West in general and that people don’t want to become part of an alien culture at all.
As for not able to stop those proselytizers: I think you are going to be surprized, but unfortunately for those proselytizes it shall be a very life threathening and even dealy surprize.
As for Americans settling down in Iraq: if you think the Iraqis are going to accept Americans to come and “settle” tehmselves there (like the Israelis “settled” in Palestine) in order to fix the colonisation, I’m sorry but you must be dreaming awake.
And the USA has not “opened that country to multi-cultarism” at all.
It is a multicultural society since thousands of years. An a very comples one at that.
And if you think the USA has “taken over the country” you must believe that the Iraqis are all dead or constantly asleep.
Nothing is taken over but what the USA wanted in its greed and not even that is “secured”.
If the UN is kept out of it by the arrogance of the US president and government, in order to establish a chosen Iraqi government and get things going under Iraqi ruling, then I’m sorry but I have to say:
You ain’t seen nothing yet.
But of course the USA government believes they can handle and control and keep it. This is the most openly arrogant and greedy and self-centered government America had since a long time.
But reminder: They thought they could handle Vietnam also.
Salaam.
Aldebaran.
You got any valid cites for any of those assertions you just posted, Aldebaran. Or is it more of your campaign to join the one trick pony chowder & marching society?