Monty,
I don’t need “websites” to know what I talk about.
I’m part of such a society, I’m raised in the middle of such a society. I’m born in such a society. I live in such a society.
And the structure and population of and inside Iraq is a lot more complicated then my country.
Aldebaran:
a) Where did I ask for a website?
b) You do not know what you’re talking about.
Sure.
Whatever that keeps you happy.
Salaam.
Your debating skills are without par.
My apologies if it has already been pointed out (I tuned out a bit due to all the animosity in this thread) but the coverstory of the current issue of Time is about Christian missionaries to Islamic countries. Some of them have apparently been employing some rather dubious tactics such as entering a country under false pretences and impersonating muslims.
Article is here:
Aldebaran, on behalf of the courteous Dopers around here, let me apologize for any hostility you have experienced. One of the big policies that characterizes this site and its discussions is that facts need to be substantiated – anecdotal evidence is acceptable, but its generalization to suggest what the world is like is not. To give an example from another discussion, that you know one girl who had an abortion and regretted it does not mean that all girls who had abortions eventually regretted it. It’s a single datapoint. An accumulation of such stories (e.g., in well over 100 accounts of their realization-of-being gay stories from gay men, I’ve never seen one where they felt it was a choice) may furnish a statistical universe of some value. Your experiences, and the views of your culture, are data, but the latter should be substantiated, and the former are a single case in point – valuable, and not to be belittled, but also dangerous to generalize from. The point I’m going for is that you came across as blustery and opinionated, and people reacted as they do to the occasional person who decides to tell us all exactly how it is. In reading subsequent posts, I see that you are trying to convey a stance that many of us don’t understand well, and have picked up on the need to document what you say.
In general, Americans do not have a good handle on Iraqi culture (or Moslem culture in general), and what little they do know tends to reinforce a stereotype of something repressive by Western standards. How true this stereotype is, I don’t know – I presume it’s quite overblown but has aspects of truth – but the fact I’m submitting is my own sense, over five decades, of what Americans tend to think when they think of Iraq or the Middle East.
I don’t have good data on what percentage of Americans are Christian and what percentage of Christians are evangelical, but I can submit to you that I’d say less than 30% of the country is actively interested in supporting any attempts of the sort of “Bible waver” evangelism you suggest. My own church has a great deal of respect for those who follow God as He was perceived by the Prophet, but the belief that Moslems generally should come to know Jesus Christ as a real presence – and that this can best be achieved by behaving as He would have us behave, i.e., with respect and compassion, and having our lives be witnesses to our faith. (I was quite pleased with the response you gave in Susma’s religion thread, BTW – we agree on far more than we disagree on!)
The problems you address are constructed on the mirror image of that misperception of the Islamic world that I mentioned above – a misconception of what the West stands for on the part of many of your countrymen and co-religionists. Like the other, there are truths in it but it tends to exaggerate and misconstrue.
First, many multinational corporations, particulary the oil companies, are interested in your area. They are not trying to push our culture on you; what they are looking for is to make money – as much money as possible, by whatever methods will work. I’m neither condemning nor defending them in this paragraph, but simply reporting their motives as objectively as possible.
Second, the group of evangelicals – the Religious Right – that I mentioned above make far more noise than their numbers would suggest. (A parallel might be the rather small but influential group of radical doctrinaire Islamists in Egypt.)
Third, the middle class in America resents the tax levels imposed for the services rendered, dislikes having their own business regulated, and in consequence tends to support the Republicans by a significant majority.
The present President and his administration, who realize that they won a very close election but are enjoying some popular support from the heartland of America, derive a fair amount of their political support from the second group, their campaigns are funded in part by the first group, and both the President and Vice President worked in those industries and are influenced by their experiences.
They do not represent the feeling of all Americans – you may note popularity polls that suggest that Mr. Bush is losing a lot of support. They do represent a few significant groups and in that sense some of your complaints are valid.
Franklin Graham is the son of an elderly evangelist; even living in the same state as him and being quite involved with religious issues, I hear little about him except when he makes national press with controversial stuff like the “Islam is a religion of hate” comment. (And you may note how soundly he was denounced by a lot of our religious leaders in consequence of that.) The other “evangelize the Arabs” folks are outspoken but do not represent the majority of Americans in any way.
I hope this is some help to your discussions.
Salaam aleikum polu carp,
All you mentioned is very wel known to me. Yet the mere fact that Christians like those I refer to as Bible Wavers have the arrogance to think they can go in any country they want, uninvited, unwanted, yet thinking they have every right, makes my blood come to an unhealthy temperature.
I described to Susma what such idiots their intrusive, imposing arrogance cause in such societies and that this is one of the reasons why some Muslim nations simply forbid their activities.
And yes, the knowledge of the MONA region and of the Muslim world in general (there are 50 Musim nations worldwide) is severely poor in the rest of the world.
That is not limited to the USA, but Europeans have in general a lot more “feeling” and insight in the matters of the MONA region. Don’t forget that the whole region around the Mediterrean shares a common and often intertwined history.
For Americans, the whole region - and I include Europe - is inevitably alien territory.
As for comments that I don’t “know what i talk about” when I talk about my own part of the world where I was born, grew up, live… it can only make me smile about their utterly arrogance.
And when it comes to give “proof” for anything I post here… I’m sorry, but it isn’t my habit to give websites as references.
I really don’t understand the addiction of people to what websites publish and their blind faith in what they read.
For a historian that is as good as throwing every book in his library and every study he did in the fire.
If I ever come up with such a “source” it is to underscore something that isn’t provable by other form of information, because it is about a current event described in some Media article, which isn’t reliable but nevertheless a form of a source.
Or I give a website of something like the UN. One can presume that what such organisations publish is reliable.
Salaam.
Aldebaran.
Greetings to you. I apologize for my previous discourteous remarks.
There may be a misunderstanding here. While this community appreciates rhetoric, it also depends on citations from reliable sources. You’ll notice that the sources that nearly everyone uses are from organizations such as the UN, or the BBC, or other “impartial” sources. When people use more biased citations (e.g. politically-aligned news sources), they are often confronted on that and the authority of their cite is questioned.
For example, if someone says that Sweden is 95% Muslim, and that we should believe him simply because he says that he’s right, we would ignore him. However, if he provides evidence of this (census data from the Swedish government, for example) then his position would be more solid.
Are we in agreement?
It isn’t websites per se that are being desired – but good objective references providing “proof” (so far as such a thing is possible) for the information offered. A link to a website is handy. Several times I’ve retyped a passage from a reference work to substantiate a fact I put forth, where the data was not available online.
From the perspective of the “Bible Wavers,” they have the greatest right in the world to do what they’re proposing to do – the commission of God Himself to “go forth and proclaim the Gospel to all the world.” Certainly a devout and conservative Moslem would justify an action he took considered peculiar or fanatical by reference to the Koran, the Hadith, or the 'ulema – I trust you can see the parallel. And yes, they are often arrogant – some are not, but those are not the ones causing the problems. I know of a church in this area which sponsors a medical missionary to a rural area in Pakistan without adequate medical care locally – and while he makes no secret that he’s there because he feels that Christ led him to undertake the mission, neither does he try to call the locals heathen for being Islamic. I trust you can see the difference.
I admit to not having a strong sense of how a Maronite Lebanese, a Kurd, a Jordanian, an Omani, a Cyrenaician, would react in a given circumstance – and in being aware of my ignorance, I think I’m quite a bit ahead of many of my countrymen.
Yes we are.
I have a question:
If someone who not only is born and lives in a certain part of the world but in addition had made it his studyfield, comes with information about it, is there any other need for him then to be himself to be more reliable then those who don’t have this background?
Well the problem with being in online conversation is that you can’t provide more then your words appearing on the screen.
The additional problem in my case is that any information I possess in written form, wereunder those I wrote myself, is written in an other language then English.
I do have English works in my library, of course.
In fact, if you are interested in a better understanding or the intertwined problems in the MONA region, I can recommend you an excellent study written by two Americans, which I would recommend to students and which in fact is used now as documentation among course material at the university where I studied.
A Political Economy of the Middle East
Second Edition
Alan Richards and John Waterbury
Westview Press
Oxford/Boulder Colorado.
ISBN 0-8133-2411-4
The only flaw in this work is the absence of taking in consideration the huge influence of and interaction with the economical powers.
I’m almost sure that when a third edition sees light - which surely will start with the 9/11 events and its influence - this will be included.
Good reading.
That becomes a little more of a grey area. If in the hypothetical situation I gave above (where someone claims that Sweden is 95% Muslim), what if that person were born and raised in Stockholm? Does that mean we should automatically believe him in everything he says?
Some things do not require a cite. Anecdotal evidence, as Polycarp mentioned, is valuable. Factual evidence, however, should be backed up with solid proof, especially if someone asks for it. The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claims.
On preview, I see your post referring to a book – this is a good example! If someone asks for verification of claim, you could copy the appropriate text from the book, cite it properly, and continue on your way.
Well, the book I refer to is to gain a general insight in the whole intertwined problematic of those countries.
I don’t copy my knowledge from one single work, how good I may find it. That is not how it works.
As for factual evidence: what factual evidence but myself is there to give when I describe how a society like the Iraqi one is structured and works?
There is no “factual evidence” on such things as the influence on yourself and your society coming forth from being part of family which is part of a tribe which on its turn has its place among other tribes in a tribal orientated society, where since centuries the family is the heart of private and social and cultural life, and the cement that keeps things together.
I can of course post my whole blood line (but that would take some bandspace here since it goes upto the Prophet Muhammed) but what does it tell you about the related meanings in al their aspects on my life and that of others?
There are things that can’t be caught in reports or “factual evidence” and when these form the backbone of a society, then people like the Bible Wavers cause a disturbance that is not only felt in the direct surrounding of the individual they influence, but on hundreds of people connected with him through those complicated intertwined social relationships. And this is only one example.
And if someone posts that they are an expert on Middle East history, religion, culture, and politics and they claim that all Muslims have a sworn duty to kill all infidels, should we take them at their word because they had identified themselves as experts?
The purpose of providing a citation is to show that the opinions expressed have support in some fact. Anyone can claim anything on a message board. If one wants his or her statements accepted, it is to his or her advantage to show where others have revealed similar factual information.
We, in fact, have a (tiny minority of) posters who assert that “Islam” is at war against the United States and Europe. Without some evidence, their word is as good as yours in a post. (Few believe their claims, but if you make wild, unsubstantiated statements, few will believe yours.)
Your choice, of course.
Aldebaran:
There are plenty of Muslims who go to Africa, who go to Europe, who go to America in order to proselytize. Contrary to your assertion, Islam definately IS a proselytizing religion. Muslims believe that Islam is for everyone.
It is certainly true that Muslim preachers realize that America and Europe are not fertile fields for Islam. But we have several US converts to Islam on this board. Muslims want Islam to spread, for exactly the same reasons Christians want Christianity to spread.
There are Christian minorities in many Middle Eastern countries, especially Egypt. Are the indigenous Christians a danger to Islam? Do they tear at the social fabric of Islamic countries? Do they seek to destroy? No, of course not.
But what about foreign Christians? Is Islam so fragile that it will fall apart when challenged by foreign evangelists? The truth is that most Muslims will react to them the same way we react to Hare Krishna groups at the airport: most will ignore them, some will pity them, some will attempt to counter-evangelize. Very few will join them. And if those few people become Christians, how exactly will that destroy Islam, or destroy their society?
Do you believe in religious freedom? I do. I’m not a Christian, but I recognize that every human being on this planet has a right to religious freedom and freedom of conscience. This right is not given by a government or a constitution. It is a fundamental human right that precedes and supercedes governments, treaties, laws, religions, or scriptures.
People in North America and Europe have religious freedom. Christian missionaries can come here and evangelize. Muslim missionaries can evengelize. Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Zoroastrians, Pagans, Secular Humanists, Animists, Jains, Sikhs…all are free to worship how they please. Governments in NA and Europe don’t grant us this freedom, they recognize this freedom.
Why should other people be excluded from this fundemental human right, simply because the countries they live in are majority muslim? The people of Iraq don’t need to be hidden away in a museum, with their religion perfectly preserved for anthropologists to study. Islamic religion and Islamic culture is perfectly capable of protecting itself. They aren’t going to adopt Christianity en masse. And even if they did, that would be their right as human beings.
So I don’t see what you are so upset about. Christians organize a recruiting drive in the Middle East. Muslims ignore it. Story over.
***There are plenty of Muslims who go to Africa, who go to Europe, who go to America in order to proselytize. Contrary to your assertion, Islam definately IS a proselytizing religion. Muslims believe that Islam is for everyone. ***
No at all. Muslims don’t go on mission in order to proselytise. It is something that is strange to the Islamic religion. But yes, of course Muslims believe that Islam is for everyone: Islam means: submission (= submisson to God). Therefore Muslims believe that every child is born as Muslim.
It is certainly true that Muslim preachers realize that America and Europe are not fertile fields for Islam. But we have several US converts to Islam on this board. Muslims want Islam to spread, for exactly the same reasons Christians want Christianity to spread.
Not at all. There are no “Muslim preachers” coming from the outside into the nations you describe. And if you ever see a Muslim trying to “proselytise”, you can tell that person with my compliments that he is violation the commands of God.
And of course there are worldwide conversions to Islam every day. (there are conversions or acceptances of every sort of religions worldwide every day). People come in contact with it on various ways. And no, Muslims don’t want Islam to spread “for the same reasons as Christian want Christianity to spread”.
Christians believe that “Jesus Saves” must be exported by all means because they actually believe that “Jesus Saves” and that all the rest is invalid (to say it in a soft way).
That is in clear contradiction with what is stated in Al Qur’an : That God chooses who He wants. That is: who God wants. There is also stated that God installed “many ways” = different paths = different religions. There is also a command to respect those other ways = to leave those people alone because God decides and not you, which religion they follow (or not follow). As I said: if someone asks questions, the Muslim must inform him or direct the person to someone who can inform.
***Christian minorities in many Middle Eastern countries, especially Egypt. Are the indigenous Christians a danger to Islam? Do they tear at the social fabric of Islamic countries? Do they seek to destroy? No, of course not. ***
No they don’t, because they are not only part of the society, they take part in it without trying to destroy it. They live there with the Muslims, not against them. All in all they are embedded in the society since the society came to be and never where outside that society at all. And they don’t “proselytise”.
I have Christian and Jewish friends and we discuss a lot and that sometimes include religion. And we enjoy it. (I have also Catholic relatives but that is in Europe).
***But what about foreign Christians? Is Islam so fragile that it will fall apart when challenged by foreign evangelists? ***
You didn’t understand my explanation. It is not about “fragility” of the religion at all. The danger those foreign proselytisers form is not at all for the religion. It is about the whole system because Islam is not only a religion, it is a way of life that is intertwined with every action, saying, thought, decision one makes and with the social structure of the society from top to bottom.
***The truth is that most Muslims will react to them the same way we react to Hare Krishna groups at the airport: most will ignore them, some will pity them, some will attempt to counter-evangelize. ***
The truth is that in societies who are for almost hundred % Muslim, those proselytisers will not be ignored. Their insults on God and the prophet Muhammed probably will be “ignored” on the surface for some time (but don’t count on that when it comes to Shi’a or very strict Sunni) because they are foreigners, but if they continue it will bring them in danger. Take notice that the idea of God having a son is the greatest blasphemy for a Muslim.
Very few will join them. And if those few people become Christians, how exactly will that destroy Islam, or destroy their society?
Of course very few will join them. But every single “conversion" will cause a shockwave in the society that person belongs and which will spread among the whole of his family structure and beyond. Re-read what I say about that. Families will be ripped apart, social interactions will be disturbed.
You question this because you really have no idea how omnipresent Islam as religion and Islam as way of life is in the life of a Muslim.
***Do you believe in religious freedom? ***
Of course. That is why I despise the extreme arrogance of those Christians who try to disturb societies where people have a religion since 1400 years, because they claim their Christianity is the only valid religion for the whole world. If the world wants it or not.
***I do. I’m not a Christian, but I recognize that every human being on this planet has a right to religious freedom and freedom of conscience. This right is not given by a government or a constitution. ***
Yes it is… I don’t know how you come to that. ? ? ? ? Do a google search on the constitutions of countries world wide.
***It is a fundamental human right that precedes and supercedes governments, treaties, laws, religions, or scriptures. ***
About human rights: Al Qur’an describes that famous “Declaration of Human Rights” everywhere you read. In a period when the Europeans where smashing eachother’s heads of in the woods.
**People in North America and Europe have religious freedom. Christian missionaries can come here and evangelize. Muslim missionaries can evengelize. Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Zoroastrians, Pagans, Secular Humanists, Animists, Jains, Sikhs…all are free to worship how they please. Governments in NA and Europe don’t grant us this freedom, they recognize this freedom. ***
The constitutions of the countries in Europe I’m familiar with grant every religious freedom possible. I thought it was also part of the constitution of the USA.
And to give you only one single example of a Muslim nation which Constitution grants religious freedom although Islam is described as the State Religion: That is mine.
Why should other people be excluded from this fundemental human right, simply because the countries they live in are majority muslim?*
They aren’t excluded. There are Christians there. They can come in contact with them. But aggressive foreigners with lying, deceiving, out on disturb and destroy tactics are criminals. Do you want an invasion of criminals in your country?
**The people of Iraq don’t need to be hidden away in a museum, with their religion perfectly preserved for anthropologists to study. ***
Sorry? Care to elaborate on how you come to this denigration? Do you know how arrogant you come across? You actually say that Islam is something “medieval” only present in “backwards” societies (in you mind located in the Middle East), don’t you. Well, take an Atlas of the World and take a closer look about where the 50 Islamic nations (= with majority Muslim and Islam-inspired governing) are located.
Islamic religion and Islamic culture is perfectly capable of protecting itself.
It doesn’t need to protect itself at all.
** They aren’t going to adopt Christianity en masse. And even if they did, that would be their right as human beings. So I don’t see what you are so upset about.***
Re-read above and my other posts explaining it. Story is far from over. Those Christians will get themselves killed because they will overheat the already explosive situation there with their insulting talks. If you like to see that, that is your choice. But I don’t.
*Christians organize a recruiting drive in the Middle East. Muslims ignore it. Story over.
They have no right whatsoever to exploit the situation to disturb that country and that society even more then it is. They are criminal arrogant fanatics who form a danger for themselves because they won’t be “ignored” at all.
Tell me: How do you think the colonizers will react if some of those fanatics get killed?
Will they say: Story over?
Salaam.
Aldebaran.
Two questions:
1: All Christians? Or just these particular Christians?
2: Would you care to say it in a less than soft way, so that we can tell what you really mean?
Every one with some common sense can deduct that such a person is only the expert of his/her fantasies. You only need to open en read Al Qur’an to refute their claims.
You can find in every good library information about the social structures I describe. Plus you can read the book I gave references off, which also touches this issue.
Well why don’t you ask them for their eveidence?
And do me a favour: tell me where I can find these statements. You can come and watch when I go there if you want to see some minor fireworks.
I can post my bith certificate, my genealogy and my diplomes of course. Thank you for the invitation, but no thank you… I don’t think those items will be published on this or any other internet location.
It is.
Salaam.
1.All Christians who call themselves such = those who believe that Jesus was the son of God, believe that the only way to “salvation” is through Jesus (we can have set up a discussion on those two dogma’s if you like). They are also instructed that this must be preached all over the world. That is their Christian duty. So it doesn’t matter that not all Christians take part in those actions: it is what is described asd being part of the Christian duty (their interpretation of the words “go and multiply”… We can have also a discussion on that if you want)
2. Thus all other religions are invalid, since they don’t lead to “salvation” through Jesus, which is the only possible way.
I received interesting claims on that on an other message board, about why and how “others” are or are not “accepted” in paradise. But it allways cames down on: Christianity is The Way and only Jesus Saves.
(If you want to discuss Christianity, I’m all in for such interesting debates… But to avoid problems, I think there is some red alert warning needed: I’m a very stubborn person once I’m challenging or am challenged and defending my views…)
Salaam.
Aldebaran
Hmmm.