Aldebaran: “Every Moslem is united in hatred of Christianity, and believes that Jihad (Holy War) against Christianity and America is his holy duty.”
I can show you a place where a decent American citizen says what is effectively that – I’ve paraphrased his rant into something a bit briefer.
I am a devout Anglican Christian. I believe that Jesus is the active force in God, who took human form and who calls all men to Himself. I suspect strongly that He did just that with the Prophet (PBUH).
What you say are the words of “every Christian” are the teachings of one, quite vocal group.
I refute them as regards myself, the people of my own parish church, and by and large my denomination. Those others do not speak for me.
Just as the Ayatollahs of Iran, the radicals of Egypt, or Al-Qaida do not speak for you.
I’m a bit confused about whether you approve of the “Declaration of Human Rights” or not – your tone was one I’d have read as ironic in another poster.
Suffice it to say that I’m not at all happy about your last post.
When they make broad claims, we do; just as we have asked them of you for some of your more outlandish claims. Everyone is treated equally, here.
I have no desire to see your biography or curriculum vitae. On the other hand, if you make a statement that seems to be inaccurate, I will challenge you to provide evidence. If you hide behind a veneer of false authority, I will feel free to dismiss you as a crank. As you have agreed, that is your choice.
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*Originally posted by Polycarp *
**I can show you a place where a decent American citizen says what is effectively that – I’ve paraphrased his rant into something a bit briefer.
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Oh please do…
QUOTE]I am a devout Anglican Christian. I believe that Jesus is the active force in God, who took human form and who calls all men to Himself. I suspect strongly that He did just that with the Prophet (PBUH).
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AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH… (Sorry… still shaking from reading such blasphemy)
QUOTE]What you say are the words of “every Christian” are the teachings of one, quite vocal group.
I refute them as regards myself, the people of my own parish church, and by and large my denomination. Those others do not speak for me.
Just as the Ayatollahs of Iran, the radicals of Egypt, or Al-Qaida do not speak for you.).
[QUOTE]
So you don’t believe that Jesus in the only way you can get salvation? Because that is what I refer to.
As for those fanatics: they bring the belief that the whole world must be “saved” by Christianity in practice.
By the way: you should go visit the 10/40 window to see some other fanatics. When I first read it, my blood came a bit above temperature (they denigrate at will and there is no single person who has a good life in any Muslim nation… I didn’t get further then that section) but when I got to their “touchy Muslim conversion story”… I never saw something wityer on such a website before. They let the poor deprived Muslim, of course living somewher in the mud, complain about how hard it is all that praying and the “yearly hajj to Mekka” he had to make a…
LOL… hehe… I pictured all those millions of Muslims on the globe making their “yearly hajj”… Poor Mekka.
I’m a bit confused about whether you approve of the “Declaration of Human Rights” or not – your tone was one I’d have read as ironic in another poster. ).**
So Christians will go to proselytize in these countries. And that will rip apart families and the entire social structure of an Islamic country? And therefore, Muslims will kill the evangelists?
No, that is a racist, patronizing attitude. Muslims are perfectly capabable of calmly and rationally dismissing Christian missionaries. Christian missionaries may be patronizing and insulting. But if the mere presence of Christian missionaires means violence and destruction, then perhaps that is an internal matter for Muslims to resolve…why can’t we tolerate people from other faiths?
And you are quite wrong in your assertion that Muslims don’t proselytize. Why exactly did Islam spread to Africa and South-East Asia? Why is it still spreading?
If Islam cannot tolerate other religions then that is the problem, not the missionaries. Yes, lying, cheating, stealing and tricking people into christianity is wrong, and doomed to failure. But please give some evidence that the majority of Christian missionaries intend to lie and steal and cheat honest Muslims. It may be true, but I don’t believe it. Please provide some evidence.
yes, wrong button… and too soon…
I’m discovering the traps of this message board.
Proceeding:
Where do you detect that I have something against the declaration of human rights?
I said: it is all in Al Qur’an. Written down in a time when the Europeans were chasing wild swines in the woods, hammering eachother’s head to crumbles.
The Arabs where hunting some deers and birds and so on, also hammering here and there on eachother.
But that was corrected when they got hammered on their skulls with Al Qur’an (We don’t speak here about the hammering on others and eachother later on)
Well if you take it as if I said that all Christians are fanatical Bible Wavers I can come in to that without any problem.
Well they will not always get killed or put behind bars. But many times they will get expelled.
**
Why is that a racist patroniZing attitude? If you are not welcome do you go to that place, let be to insult the people there and shock them? Well those proselytisers do just that.
And not the Muslims form the problem then, but those proselytisers create them.
It has nothing to do with tolerating other faiths. I said they are tolerated and there are other faiths in Muslims countries, even in the Wahhabi Saudi Arabia 5where they so called can have religious meetings without any problem while everyone knows that is a fairy tale.)
**
That is a severe misunderstanding/misinformation that is widely spread in the West, I know. Yet the reality is quite the opposite. Conversion was even not encouraged and Islam spread because of the presence of trading posts (in the beginning) and later because people wanted to become part of the bureacracy and the governing system. But because non Muslims payed dhimmi taxes which provided income for the State, conversion in new gained terrirtories was not such a goal as people in the West are made believe. Or why do you think there were always flourishing Christian and Jewish communities all over the Muslim Empires and why did the Jews ( and Christians) who were persecuted during the "reconquista ran to North Africa and the Ottoman Empire?
I think I posted links to some articles about these tactics somewhere in the beginning of this topic. And I believe that there is also a contribution from an other poster to that.
I never mentioned “stealing”…
And i also never said “all” proselytizers use those tactics.
Yet if they do that or not, I find every “proselytizing” that includes to tell others that their belief is wrong and that only that other one it the Only One something that makes me extremely angry.
If I meet someone on a street who hand me over a Bible, I don’t find that insulting or ennoying at all. I would take it and thank the person for the gesture.
That is not the same as that person coming in my country trying to tell me that my bleief in God is inherently wrong and only his way counts.
Aldebaran also overlooked the incredibly obvious FACT that not all Muslims are “united in their hatred of Christianity.” There are plenty of Muslims, to include clerics, who do not hate Christianity.
my opposition against and disgust about people going uninvited into a coutry with the goal to destroy the religion ot the citizens. That is inherently evil. If you have a religion, it is your way of worshipping God. Your personal way, that makes you feel you are doing the right think to express your devition.
No one has the right to take that away from you with whatever method use. No one has the right to destroy your faith.
Those Bible Wavers have only that goal: destroy people’s faith and replace it with what they claim is The Only Righ One.
The utterly arrogance of this state of mind makes me vomit by the thought alone. I declare such people criminals, out to destroy on what other people see as the most important in their life (for a Muslim, God as portrayed in islam and Al Qur’an, see as the Message of God given to him as a guidance, is the most important of his possesions).
In general.
For that you should re-read my explanations about how intertwined Islam is in every aspect of the bleievers daily life, worldview, family and social interaction and the very structure of the whole society.
Those proselytizers are out on disturbing all of that and replace it with alien religion, alien views alien customes and alien culture destroying the whole life of the individual they get to “convert” and with that causing a chain reaction that will affect not only the individual but all his relatives, his whole family, his tribal connections and so on.
I wonder what they actually think to achieve. Bringing here and there a person so far that he doesn’t attend the mosque anymore, sits at home with a Bible and is an outcast because he doesn’t participate anymore in what is the very basic of the whole society: Islam…? Which also means that if it is a man that he can’t get married and if it is a woman, she won’t find anyone ready to mary her?
Although, of course, intertwined though it may now be, Islam itself was an alien religion when it was first introduced. So the idea of introducing alien ideas is not in and of itself wrong otherwise Islam would never have been introduced.
The idea that new ideas can never be introduced must be false because otherwise we would have stagnation - we would still be living in caves.
Anyway moving on…
Comparing the Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and The Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam, 5 August 1990.
Articles 12 and 13 of the Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights do not provide the freedom to change one’s religion or belief as compared to the Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Article 12(e) bans any criticisms of Islam, Article 12(a) bans any criticisms of Muhammad, and Article 13 permits the killing of apostates if your religious belief demands it.
And exactly how is a voluntary decision someone taking something away, Aldebaran. Since this thread is, after all, in Great Debates, you might want to remember a nifty rule here: You state assertion–>You provide proof of assertion.
I’m sorry to disappoint you, but it is not because some one publishes something and gives it a title, that it is and official document and an offical ruling that counts for every Muslim on the globe.
And to elaborate further:
CAIRO
is not
ISLAM.
Like I said earlier: I don’t come up with websites.
The only law that counts for a Muslim whe it comes to religion is Al Qur’an. The rest is human made and has to be perceived as such. That counts as good for the Sunna of Muhammed as for the Hadieth.
Did you ever read Al Qur’an?
I don’t think so, because then you would have known what I mean when I said: all those “human rights” people scream about are therein.
If i persuade you that your religion is evil and wrong, I take away by force your religion.
That is no: you making a choice. That is me, influencing you to accept that your religion is evil in order to sell you mine.
That is force, not free wil.
On the other hand, if you out of free will come to me and ask me to explain my religion, walks away with that information, studies it, comes back to me or go look elswhere for more information, studies it, and after the time needed to reflect and compar comes to thr conclusion that my religion could be one that appeals more to you then the one you follow and you come to abandon that for accepting mine, then you have made your own free choice.
If I come to you uninvited to persuade you by all means that your religion is evil and wrong, dont give up, repeat and repeat until I get my way, I take away by force your religion. That is not you making a choice. That is me, influencing you by all means possible to believe and accept that your religion is evil in order to sell you mine. That is force, not free wil.
On the other hand, if you out of free will come to me and ask me to explain my religion, walks away with that information, studies it, comes back to me or go look elswhere for more information, studies it, and after the time needed to reflect and compar comes to thr conclusion that my religion could be one that appeals more to you then the one you follow and you come to abandon that for accepting mine, then you have made your own free choice.
hmm point taken but you seem to think that islam is some kind of “sacred cow”, that criticism of religion is somehow “bad”, that it is, in some way, “bad form” to criticise a person’s religion.
Well, how about this - Jesus was a cunt and Mohammed drinks his cunt juice.
Did that shock you? I hope so.
I don’t really think that but I enjoy having the freedom to say that kind of thing. You want to stop people from saying that kind of stuff.
I think people should be free to say whatever they want. You sound like a Koran-only muslim to me, I salute you. I wish there were more like you, sadly you are in a minority I think.
The hadith say “if someone leaves his religion, kill him”. I know that most muslim countries don’t actually enforce this but the social pressure to conform amongst muslims is huge. Apostacy may not actually lead to death but it does lead to ostracism and even physical assault by family and friends.
Any ideology that won’t allow you to leave is wrong, I don’t care what else that ideology has to say. If it won’t let you leave then it’s wrong.