I’m Arabist. That means that Islam is my studyfield. That includes the study of the Hadieth.
If you aren’t familiar with that study, it is very difficult to see which one can be taken serious (with the precation of the historion added here) and which are absolutely unrealistic.
There are shelves of books in my library filled with the study on just that.
But to keep it simple: every hadith that contradicts Al Qur’an or is in opposition with its teaching in no matter which way is invalid.
There is no death penalty in Al Qur’an mentioned for apostacy.
A,d about the remark that such an action isolates a person: that is exactly what I talk about in all my previous posts.
The actions those proselytizers want to undertake, rude, arrogant, uninvited, are going to cause disrupture of the social structure in a country that is already destroyed and shattered enough as it is.
And why should I want to “stop people” for saying anything?
If you say: I spit on God, or I spit on Muhammed, or I spit or jesus, must that be my concern?
I hope not, because if it is, then I have a lot of weight on my shoulders seen the aount of people who do that everyday worldwide.
Without tackling the rest of this thread ( which is giving me a headache ), this is an inaccurate assessment. The disinclination to convert non-Arabs ( and they did actively seek to convert Arab populations in both what was Syria and southern Iraq ) was during a relatively brief period - the first century of the Caliphate. It was not a case of jizya being singularly important, but rather that almost all taxation ( other than the zakat ), including land tax, fell on non-Muslims ( and in this context, non-Arabs ). That was already changing by the reign of Umar II and after the Abbasid coup, that arrangement largely disappeared. Taxation from poll taxes was rarely ( I’d be inclined to say never ) the primary income stream - land taxes were.
Proselytizing was not the only way Islam spread, but it was eventually one of them. Sufi missionaries were particularly active in late-medieval India, for example.
Oh, bullshit. By this statement, you condem the Noble Qur’an itself.
In other words, if someone’s preaching what you want others to believe, then’s it’s fine and dandy; however, if they’re preaching what they want others to believe, they’re scum.
I agree with you that Christians should not go into Iraq for the purpose of converting Muslims to Christianity. It would be nice if we could learn to live side by side in peace with each other and with respect for each other’s beliefs. So I am on your side of the debate about that.
I am a Christian and I can still believe what I said above. I hope that you understand that not all Christians believe exactly the same things. Is that true of Islam too? I believe that all of us are One in spirit and that Allah is the same being that I call God. I like Susma’s prayer and his peaceful ways.
Since you are new to being part of Straight Dope Message Board, we understand that you will not know all of the ways to do things here. There is a lot to learn! All of us have been new at some point and had to learn the way things are done. I am still learning too.
One of the things that I have learned is that when I say that something is a fact in “Great Debates,” it is a courtesy, a custom, a tradition to provide a source other than your own self on that information. I respect that you are a professor and an Arabist. You know things that I cannot possibly know. I am also a teacher. I even used to teach people how to debate. One of the first things that my students had to learn was that to be convincing, a debater has to provide sources of information other than himself. It doesn’t matter if a person is a Prince or a President or a Prime Minister or a Professor. All would be expected to provide another source. So it is in no way an insult to ask for a "cite’ or to be asked. Everyone here is asked to do that often. It is the way to have your opinions and truths respected and listened to.
I know that dyslexia is very hard to live with. Maybe it would help to read again the things that posters have said, especially the words of Polycarp, Freyr, Mangetout and Tomndebb. They are trying to help you.
I have not said anything in this post that was meant to insult or hurt you. Okay?
Are you condoning declaration of belief only to fit in society? I am sure there are millions in the MENA region that do not embrace Islam, publicly or privately, and they are not damaging society. They may be restricted by Islamic laws, but that is the government forcing their ideals on others. You can’t blame the others for that.
And I do not believe that even the fanatical evangelists are forcing others to convert. That is propaganda on your part, unless you want to back up your assertion with some evidence.
And whether you believe that Muslim’s do or should go out and proselytize is irrelevant. And evidence many have shown in personal experiences, books, and even web site’s seem to belie
In one of your earlier posts you made the claim that apostasy was nowhere mentioned in the Koran as leading to the death penalty. You also said that such claims were based on the hadith and, presumably, had no weight in Islam.
I am an earnest student of the teachings of the Prophet (SBUH) and I notice the following from chapter 9.5 of the Koran:
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”
In other words, Islam in this verse. Islam will spare the life of an unbeliever if only he submits to Islam. There is no way to escape death if one decides to keep his/her old faith after being defeated by merciful Islam.
Alan Owes Bess, that particular Sura has been discussed several times on this board. The general consensus is that it is a specific statement made regarding a specific struggle in which Muhammed and his followers were engaged, not a general order for all time.
I guess you know that all founders of religion enjoin their followers to make converts. That’s true of Christianity and Islam. But Judaism and Hinduism and Shinto(ism)? I fear I have to take back that word.
I will say something more correct, I think, in Christianity and in Islam, the respective founder enjoins his followers to make converts. So Christians go forth to proselytize as soon as political climate is propitious, or specially when this circumstance is favorable. So also Muslims.
It’s all in the market of religion, as I said earlier; as in the market of ideas, and similarly in every market for any items looking for patronage from humans, like computer and computer programs or operating systems, and pizza.
Correct me if I am wrong. Islam started in the 7th century of the Christina era. The whole of North Africa used to be Christian, then Islam took over, same with the Middle East and Near East. In the Far East Islam seems to have done much better than Christianity.
Missionaries are merchants of religion. How and when they make a sale depend upon the quality of their merchandise, the way it’s packaged and advertised, the personality of the vendors, and most important the character of the prospective customers or buyers. And I almost forgot, missionaries have to make discount on the price of their products; otherwise in many instances they don’t succeed in making any sale at all.
Missionaries are also agents of change, for the better or for the worse. Christianity changed the face of the lands it turned to Christ; so also with Islam. Now, we are witnessing, as you have informed us, the return of Christian missionaries to Iraq. I think there was a time when Iraq was also Christian.
Is proselytization evil? ? You say “That is inherently evil.” I don’t think it’s evil in any sense, except to the people of one religion opposing the introduction of a different one by others, who are outsiders. Certainly, it is not evil in the same way as killing and stealing is evil. If it’s evil then Muslims missionaries working among the black peoples of Africa are doing an evil deed, so also would Christians as you claim in regard to Iraq.
If I may give you a piece of advice: Your hostility against the impending arrival of Christian missionaries in Iraq, in the wake of the U.S. ‘liberation’ of Iraq and its subsequent occupation, would seem to be no different, from the anger of one shop owner against a new one setting up shop just across the street.
Take it easy. Be a postgraduate Muslim like I am a postgraduate Catholic; then you will enjoy more peace and equanimity. If you have to protect and preserve the Islam faith of Iraqis, limit yourself to speaking and writing. Please don’t undertake any violent acts. The way you talk, I am afraid that you might be heading toward suicidal bombing or self-immolation by fire.
I think you have some Media pictured idea of all Muslims, especially Arabs, being ready to become a “suicide bomber”
Well, I may be known at home as an excentric lunatic, but I can assure you that I’m not as mad as you fear I may be :).
As for all the others, I’m afraid I can’t asnwer you today because of lack of time (and yes, the post made by Tamerlan on that other topic about sura 9 gives a correct explanation).
Maybe I can reply tomorrow. But I’m not sure, since the moderator on that topic some members found needed to make “about” me on this strange BBQ board, has come on board to say he’ll get me banned because " I don’t want to fit in". I guess he means by that that I’m not excatly inclined to kneel down and kiss the feet of a gathering of people who clearly refuse to grow up.
So if I’m banned, which means you wont see me back: Please be so kind to accept my appreciation for our short encounter and for your replies and input in what could is in my opinion an interesting change of thoughts and views.
I sure hope that those missionaries to Iraq will follow the timeless advice of Francis of Assisi. “Preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words.”
And I hope myself moderators don’t ban people here because of complaints from others, specially not on ideas or subjects. What moderators should do is to remind complaining people to exclude posters they don’t like or can’t accept, keep them out of their sight. blacklist them, that’s the term?.
Ald is doing us all here a very indispensable service. We have in Ald a real genuine live fervent true Muslim and most probably Arab at that. He will give us the authentic straight dope of Islam and Arabism, as we can’t never get from our fellow Christians or Western sources.
By the way, do you notice that Ald has mellowed to some extent from his first posts?
This is remotely possible, although I do not recall him actually claiming to have any religious connection beyond a Catholic mother.
He has not been threatened for being different. It was suggested that if he was going to play games and post for the sheer sport of getting a rise out of people (a claim he did make, although the words he posted may have said something different than he intended), then he was not welcome.
I am not looking to see him banned, but that choice is clearly in his hands.
