Speaking as a Christian, I hope they get thoroughly gobsmacked for it.
Dear Ald:
I am glad that you have not been banned. I think moderators only ban people who refuse to adhere to the standard universal constructive modes of interpersonal speech. But sometimes I have the impression that they have to grow up also. I know of instances or one at least to my knowledge where a moderator closed or eliminated or stopped dead a thread because it seems to be too prurient (like the merits of anal and oral sex being discussed just academically) to the concerned moderator.
I assume that you are a learned devout Muslim and even an Arab at that, as distinguished from an Indonesian or Malaysian Muslim. For me, to get the real original Islam one has to go to Arab Muslims.
Now is my big chance to have a good exchange with a genuine Arab Muslim and hear from him his side of the story.
I know all the horrors of Christianity and Christians. Proof of that, I mean horrors, is that in the last two hundred years specially in the last one hundred, Christianity and Christians have done more grabbing, killing, enslaving, and burning than any other religions or religious groups, more much more than even all of them combined, religions and religious groups – and I must admit also the their massive immoralities, of Christians, by whatever standards.
If you have any horrors of Christianity and Christians, feel most free to bring them up for my attentive study.
Naturally there are also horrors in Islam and from Muslims. I will not dwell on them; you being a discerning person must know them and deplore them. What I like to hear from you are some subjects of which I might have a more enlightened or balanced view if you give me your own personal explanations for them.
For the present all of them have to do with women in Islam and in Muslim societies; of course not in all of them, but enough as to draw the attention of the non-Muslim world or specifically the Christian world.
Tell me what you think of clitorectomy done by men on girls in some Muslim societies. Another subject, the practice of polygyny among Muslim men: four wives and unlimited concubines all sanctioned by religion and law in Islam; then also honor killing of women who are supposed to have brought dishonor on their family for some violation of so much as female modesty.
Polygyny I can accept and can see the good points; but clitorectomy and honor killing, I believe from my own part that they are certainly not to be acceptable to any person of broad learning and exposure to the best in human civilization.
So, Ald, no offense intended, just for the sake of my better information and more balanced views of Islam and Muslim societies and civilization at large, I will appreciate your explanations of the subjects I bring up here.
Susma Rio Sep
It seems to me that you’re trying to persuade your opponents here that their viewpoint is wrong and morally objectionable. By your logic, we should conclude that you are attempting to dissuade them by force.
As has been discussed and explained recently, this is not a Muslim practice, but a regional cultural practice. Where it often cuts across religious boundaries. It is practiced by Christians, Muslims, animists, and even a few Jews ( Ethiopian Jews, from a country and region where the practice is widespread ). A partial country/culture breakdown:
http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/rep/9305.htm
A matter of some little theological debate. Some modern Muslim theologians have put forward the argument that since the Qur’an enjoins a husband to treat all his wives exactly the same, and since such is virtually impossible in practice, the Qur’an explicitly bans polygyny except under extraordinary circumstances ( Muhammed being considered the exception that proves the rule ).
A somewhat tortured take, but one I find fascinating in its implication for the impact of western modernism on Islamic thought.
Yes, a sad state of affairs. The Qur’an’s rules on modesty ( both male and female, but it is the female that gets focused on ) is ready ammunition for those who seek to justify such brutality. However it is not a practice limited to Islam and Muslim scholars ( even conservative ones ) have condemned such acts - For one thing they are extrajudicial, something Islam is very down on. For example, proving adultery under Islamic law should be difficult. You need four adult witnesses to the act ( generally a pretty rare occurence ). A husband’s sworn testimony will also do, but a wife can negate that by swearing he is lieing. But of course in the rather patriarchal, frequently still somewhat tribal ( or at least clannish ) societies many of these women live in, these religious/legal protections are often ignored and force of custom wins the day.
Such practices however, don’t derive from Islam ( they were present in pre-Islamic cultures as well ), so much as represent popular culture that co-opts the religion as justification. As with FGM. Or flying kites in Afghanistan. Cultural accretions that adopt a veneer of religiosity to serve as self-legitimization.
- Tamerlane
I should correct two things above:
-
While the actual first question I replied too referenced clitorectomy, my answer referenced Female Genital Mutilation in general. The answer however, even within that narrower confine, is essentially the same ( however it narrows the geographic range, which I didn’t mention, largely to Africa and a couple of small enclaves in the Arabian penninsula, excluding the milder forms practiced in Southeast Asia ). In the chart listed in the link above, Type I sometimes includes clitorectomy, Type II and III always do.
-
My understanding is that in most cases it is not men, but women who perform the operations, usually traditional healer/midwife types. Though this will vary from area to area and culture to culture.
- Tamerlane
Irrelevant. The Arabs were a bunch of barbarians living at the edge of the great Roman Empire (which was a Christian Empire by that time). They were far less civilized and educated than their Roman neighbors. What those Germans and Celts were doing is irrelevant. Christianity came from the Roman Empire, especially from the Greek half–the most civilized and educated half.
If you are going to try to pull racist nonsense, I know enough history to put you properly in your place. Arabia in that century was an uncivilized, uncouth backwater in comparison to Rome’s Empire ruled from Constantinople.
So, are all Muslims as racist as you?
Aldebaran: You’ve asserted that you’re a professor. I’m willing to bet that I’m not the only one, given your erroneous statements on a number of topics on these boards, to wonder, “In what field are you a professor? At what school? is that school one of the better or worse schools where you are?”
Anyone else find it pretty amusing that this guy is arguing the same point as those Fundies he’s screaming about?
Cuz I did.
-Joe
Sure he is.
And let’s encourage that. After all, why should people who post inflamatory posts in Great Debates be expected to provide cites?
Of course, not only is he not providing cites, he is actively refusing to provide them. Because he just doesn’t do that.
Apparently GD is beginning a radical shift in paradigm. Just think, soon people won’t even need to bother providing links to whatever blog they’re getting their current OP from…
-Joe
Amazingly enough, this is the very first hit on typing "Islamic Missionary " into google. There were lots more. Just food for thought, as its kind of contrary to your claim that muslims don’t do missionary stuff…
I haven’t yet found much on Christian missionaries actually GOING to Iraq yet though (lots of talk about it). It might help your case if you can actually SHOW us some that have actually GONE there (and been disruptive too…that would help), so we can debate your original OP, Aldebaran…it might be a bit helpful.
-XT
About clitorectomy being an ethnic cultural thing, I would like to point out that, sad to say but maybe true, news about the practice seem to be covering Muslim societies. And what are the Muslim authorities doing about it and against it?
Do we have any government in any Christian nation that will conduct itself nonchalantly in regard to clitorectomy, say among its so-called ethnic minorities?
The same also with honor killing of women, it seems to be practiced conspicuously in Muslim societies which are also to a good extent civilized ones, according to most standards of civilization. But what are the Muslim governments doing about it? I read that they are mostly nonchalant, if not positively approving or supportive.
If it means anything to anyone, on balance I would say for all the high civilization of Christians, in the last one hundred years or even two hundred years, Christians compared to all other social cultural groups have been the most deadly destructive baneful species for mankind. That said, it has also been the most humanistic.
Susma Rio Sep
Did you look at my link? I’ll give it to you again:
http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/rep/9305.htm
Whatever the news may be covering, the practice crosses multiple religious boundaries.
Again, read my link. Some are doing nothing, others prohibit it but are moving slowly either from apathy or against strong cultural tradition, others are trying to move to suppress it. Several countries ( Senegal, Togo, Tanzania, Ghana, Djibouti, Cote D’ Ivoire, Burkina Faso, ) have passed laws banning the practice in just the last decade.
The highest rate of FGM in any single country is probably found in Egypt, where it is practiced by BOTH Muslims and Coptic Christians. Here is the law/outreach entry for Egypt:
Ministerial decree in 1959 prohibited FGM making it punishable by fine and imprisonment. Changes made over the years. In December 1997, the Court of Cassation upheld a government ban on FGM. Issued as a decree in 1996 by Health Minister, ban prohibits medical and non-medical practitioners from performing FGM in public or private facilities, except for medical reasons certified by head of hospital’s obstetric department. Government committed to eradicating FGM through education and information. Some provisions of Penal Code on “wounding”, “intentional infliction of harm leading to death” might be used. Reports of prosecution of at least 13 persons for FGM in 1995, 1996 under the Code. Many NGOs doing outreach to teach about the harmful effects. In 1982, a project by the Population Crisis Committee and Cairo Family Planning Association produced material on harmful effects and carried out training for doctors, nurses, midwives and social workers. National Committee of IAC active in anti-FGM activities since 1985. Task force targets mothers’ clinics, family planning centers, secondary school students, etc. Current efforts focus on community-based approaches and the Positive Deviance Approach that uses individuals who have deviated from tradition and stopped, prevented, oppose the procedure to advocate change. The U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), in cooperation with Egyptian government, is funding projects to train health providers on dangers of the practice and providing grants to NGOs to increase public information about this subject. Government and NGOs use media to disseminate information on health risks.
Ethiopia in contrast has no laws on the books banning FGM, despite it’s prevalence, though the government has been making some tentative moves in that direction.
Nonchalant is probably not far off the mark in some cases, more far off the mark in others. The difficulty is in sometimes precarious, mostly non-democratic governments attempting to move against a societal consensus ( or at least a deeply entenched practice ), which also relates to FGM. Nonetheless, slow, halting progress can sometimes be discerned. I will make no claims that it is anywhere near enough, of course.
Though there is plenty of room for discussion on that statement, I will say that in general I don’t exactly agree with either point. A) because things aren’t that simple and B) because it is a comment more properly applied ( when applicable and as I said it will vary ) to Western, European civilization generally - not explicitly Christianity, which had an influence, but in other respects “came along on the ride” on the European trek into modernity. Though teasing the two apart can certainly be difficult…
- Tamerlane
Thanks, Tamerlane, for your enlightening cite. I must really commend you for your fair and balanced look at situations. Glad to know of such a mind and heart as yours. Again Thanks.
*I just hope that I hadn’t added to your headache. If it had been headache to you, this thread; I assure you that your contributions and others’ here have been most profitable to me in my journey of learning and enjoyment here.
By the way, has Ald been banned; he’s been silent for some time now?
For my part, with Aldebaran’s outbursts, there has been for me a good chance to get a few things straightened out in his posts and in the replies/reactions from people here.
Susma Rio Sep
Susma Rio Sep,
That wonderful recent post of yours about “clitoridectomy being an ethnic cultural thing (und so weiter)”.
were you totally drunk when you wrote and posted this, or are you like this when sober?
(Since this is an Aldebaran thread, I must show my signature).
No, no, I was perfectly sober when I wrote that post. But if it seems to you to have been written in a drunken stupor, it should not surprise you; because for people in a perpetual drunken haze everything looks indiscriminately inebriated.
Best regards,
Susma Rio Sep