I don’t watch Big Love, but I like to read the discussions (I’m strange that way), and I just wanted to weigh in as another ex-Mormon. I found that my experiences in with the church in Utah were vastly different from my experiences with the church in California. Despite the fact that there is a central authority and the overall authority of the church is very organized, ultimately, all of the bishops and ward presidents etc are nothing more than volunteers. They do the best they can to fulfill their calling, but they don’t have any sort of formal training in this and orders from the Presidency can be interpreted different ways. As a result, people’s experiences tend to vary from region to region, as the community itself tends to shape the expectations and behavior of the local wards. In my experience, bishops can be VERY helpful and provide a great deal of support, but I grew up in a small community where your bishop is likely to be your mother’s first cousin. Or your grandpa. Or your dad.
So both Dogzilla and Reloy3 can have valid yet vastly different experiences within the same LDS construct.
Having said all of that, it sounds like, from reading the threads, that the writers of Big Love seem to be portraying the Utah LDS experience accurately (except for the casino thing. WTF?! That’s really, really, really…wrong.).
Just wanted to point you all to this really great article in this month’s National Geographic about the FLDS community in Hildale, UT/Colorado City, AZ.
And, pepperlandgirl, thanks for the backup on the casino thing. So weird to me…
I wonder if there are any casinoes that don’t serve alcohol. (I could Google fu but I’m not so inclined; maybe later.) It just seems that it’s giving up way too much profit margin for a business; those opposed to alcohol would seem to either
1- not be the sort to go to casinoes in the first place
or
2- just not drink while they’re at said casino
Thanks for National Geo link. This subject has fascinated me for almost 30 years ever since I read a kid’s bio of Brigham Young (which tiptoed around the plural wives which led me to more research which led me to obsession; I’m probably the only non-Mormon who can name more than two dozen of Heber Kimball’s wives or give an extemporaneous lecture on the apostasies of Sarah Pratt and her children, not that it’s ever come up). It’s frustrating that when I let my subscription to National Geo lapse they do articles like this (at least it’s available in the store now), but when I have a subscription they do “the secret life of wombats” or “Downtown Lesterville, Wisconsin on a Thursday night” pieces.
Does the mainstream Mormon church do much to counteract the negative consequences of the apostate polygamous cults? I know that they have no official connection and excommunicate all polygamists and condemn their doctrines as heresy yadda yadda, but at the same time they do arguably bear a part of the responsibility for the existence of those sects, and while they’re not directly responsible for the excesses of Warren Jeffs (loved it when Roman condemned him as a pervert) or the LeBarons (on whom the Greens are based) or the Kingstons (on whom I think JJ is going to turn out to be based; Embry’s group is I think based on the Allreds, or Apostolics, who used to be more mainstream but have taken some wacky turns in recent years), I would hope they would at least have something in place to help “the Lost Boys” or women (or men) fleeing those cults, but when I read Caroline Jessup or books by others who have left such communities this doesn’t seem to be the case. Many are helped by a multimillionaire former fundamentalist who left the sect long ago and helps refugees. (His fortune comes from some dental products he invented; he lives monogamously now but did provide financially for his other wives and his children with them.)
One of the most amazing things in the case of Carolyn Jessup was that her husband, a man with by then almost a dozen other wives who had all manner of civil and criminal litigation against him, still had partial custody rights to the children for the longest time, even to the point of taking them onto the compound during the chaos following Jeffs’ flight. She was later granted sole custody, but mostly because he’s in El Dorado TX now and acting head of the church, plus he’s 70+ with health problems and rarely leaves the compound, so he barely fought it. More amazing is that her oldest daughter lived in SLC and other ‘normal’ places for 3 years (I’m sure that SLC can seem a loony bin to a non-Mormon but at least you don’t have the absolute insanity of the compounds- kind of like ‘better to live around Baptist fanatics in Alabama than the Taliban in Kabul’), yet she moved back to the FLDS compound as soon as she turned 18.
Obscure question: Does anybody know where the name Rulon comes from? It appears all over the place in accounts of fundamentalist Mormons- Rulon Allred, Rulon Jeffs, Rulon Jessup, etc.- and dates back at least a century, but I’ve wondered the source.
Bill owning a casino might be very, very wrong. However, having just passed through Mesquite, NV last fall, I have no doubt that a casino near the Utah border would be very busy. Those casinos were packed!
I think the mainstream church’s general attitude is “if we pretend it doesn’t exist, it doesn’t.” I am not aware of anything the church does to mitigate the consequences of the offshoot sects’ actions.
And, I might add, because The Principle is scripturally based, and all of the sects, including the mainstream LDS church, use the exact same scriptures… some might argue that it is the mainstream LDS church that has apostatized, not the offshoot plyg sects. If you read D & C 132 (this is straight from the LDS church’s searchable scriptures web site, i.e., this is the mainstream church’s current canon), then you see that the FLDS are living their gospel according to the scripture and the mainstream LDS church is not.
And I have no idea where the name Rulon comes from. I’m sure you’ve come across quite a few kooky mormon names in your research. I sure have.
I read Carolyn Jessop’s book as well. Horrifying. Riveting. I think her daughter’s return to the compound is a testament to the power and strength of brainwashing (and of the efficacy of waterboarding your own infants). Three years isn’t long enough to fully deprogram and Carolyn was barely keeping it together herself at that time. She got everyone into counseling toot-sweet, but she was battling 15 years of daily brainwashing vs. 3 years of maybe once a week deprogramming. I wasn’t surprised at all to learn that she went back. It was all she knew and those three years probably scared the hell out of her moreso than tempted her to stay out. This is why I’m fascinated with the Amish concept of Rumspringa. I wish mormonism allowed that.
The National Geo article actually has photos and text about the funeral of Foneta, Jessup’s senior wife. In the book it says she was literally abandoned by the roadside a few years ago after 16 children and many years of chronic mental illness and depression. Evidently she either returned to them or at least had a big “welcome back” funeral.
The first Rulon I can find was Rulon Wells (born 1853), who was Daniel Wells’ son, a member of the first quorum of the Seventy, President of the European Mission, and member of the Utah House of Representatives. Maybe later Rulons are named in his honor?
Actually, Dogzilla, most of the facts you wrote are accurate, its just the “spin” or interpretation that I disagree with, obviously. Most of the mistakes, from my perspective, are small and nitpicky. Like “Just so you know… for the most part, mormons have their own hymnal. There might be a handful of traditional Christian hymns (which rarely get sung in church), but most were written by a mormon, for mormon services.” Actually, the majority of hymns in the LDS hymnal are from non-mormon authors, including many popular ones like “How Great Thou Art”. That is no big deal.
I just want the readers to know that statements like:
“I see the purpose as that of mind control: It is a cult tactic to repeat your belief system over and over publicly among other believers.”
“It all stems from Joseph Smith and his insatiable quest to bang young girls.”
“Girls are raised to believe that a non temple marriage is akin to becoming a prostitute”
“A lot of mormonism is about checking off certain “musts” off your list (Go to BYU, Get married in temple, go on a mission, make 6.4 babies, live in a giant mcmansion that is identical to every other mcmansion on the block, attend your meetings, pay 10% of your income, etc). Everybody has the same list and if you don’t check off all those things, then you are less worthy, nobody will want you, and you will die lonely and bored and miserable without a temple wife/husband. So many mormons get very caught up in appearances for appearance’s sake and lose sight of what’s really important.”
“Many mormon families have too many kids, too soon, and they do that on one income (because women are worthless unless they are making more babies, so they are discouraged from working).”
“Baptists are a church/religion. Mormons belong to a cult.”
Are not facts but a very negative spin.
I disagree with the spin, but I appreciate that at the core, much of your information is correct. Your explanations about Stake Presidents, Wards, Fast and Testamony Meetings, are accurate, until the spin.
I will be happy to contribute what I know when I have the time, but as I noted before, I’m not likely to have seen the episodes until they come out on DVD.
AMERICAN GIRL dolls have done homeless, slave, and American Indian. I think they should tap an unexploited market and do ALMA: the Compound Girl. The hairstyle and dresses alone would keep their accessories department in orders for a year.
We’ve got local casinos here that are located on Indian reservations. For a long time, they didn’t serve alcohol, because they didn’t have their license. Didn’t seem to slow down business any. They have gotten their license in the past year, however, so they’re boozing it up now.
Reloy3, it seem you just don’t appreciate Dogzilla’s negative viewpoint of the mormon church, although you don’t really disagree factually. I’d be very interested to hear your opinions on some of the same issues.
This has been a fascinating thread, I’ve very much enjoyed reading it!
Agreed, yes, but giving away beer and bottom shelf liquor to gamblers means that alcohol can’t possibly be a major profit center for casinos. At least not directly. Clouding the better judgement of gamblers is a profit center in its own right, but the profit comes from gambling, not the alcohol itself.
Have they even mentioned it?