"Big Love" on HBO [spoilers for season 4 episodes]

Sampiro, the short answer is no, not really. Marriages are supposed to only take place in the temple, for which there is a specific guy designated to perform such ordinances. That could be any worthy preisthood holder who is specifically called to the position of temple worker/wedding officiant. See Nikki’s comments about nontemple marriage to get an idea how tremendous the pressure is to only marry in the temple.

Bishops of the local wards are authorized to perform marriage ceremonies, and they will, for couples who are not temple worthy for whatever reasons. Reasons could be: they did the deed before the marriage, one or both are drinking alcohol, coffee, or doing drugs, gambling… Not paying tithing. There are a lot of reasons, but most bishops won’t let couples marry in the chapel (some will). They require the couple to use the gym (called "the multipurpose room) or in the room where the Women’s auxiliary group meets (called the “Relief Society” room). They make a big deal about what a crap marriage it is because it’s “until death do us part,” whick makes it a second class marriage.

The average dad/priesthood holder can perform baptisms, blessings on the sick, personal blessings on family members, presiding over meetings, offering prayers, or assigning someone else to give a prayer.

All that is designed to underscore the importance of temple marriage as not just being the best goal to aspire to, but to take other options off the table.

I think Lura is aware there’s something odd about Alby. She ran interference when one of her sisterwives tried to get Alby to have sex with her.

Oh, and all males over the age of 12 can be priesthood holders. A 12 year old snot nosed kid can perform a healing blessing on his sick mother.

Bill conferred the holy priesthood on Ben last season, IIRC. It was a huge deal to me, but I don’t think I was posting commentary here yet at the time. So any Mormon household could have as many priesthood holders as it has penis holders. :slight_smile: There is a heirarchy of priesthood authority (lower levels can only perform certain ordnances while higher levels can do more), so you are correct, in a way, in referring to the head of household as The priesthood holder.

This all gets very complicated when you have an outlier situation, like a Mormon woman nontemple married to a never mormon. Dad cannot bless or baptize his own children and Mom can’t either! Usually, they try to get a family member (Grampa is a good candidate) or a close family friend to do it.

Mainstream Mormons would argue that any ordnance Bill performs is null and void because he does not have the priesthood conferred on him by the proper authority (which would be the mainstream LDS church). It appears to me that Bill has basically seized that authority for himself, which has about as mch credibility to a Mormon as Charles Manson calling himself President of the USA. So I’d really like to see that backstory episode myself.

Is Scott and the stoner dude the same actor? I’ve been wondering, but too lazy to look it up.

Otherwise, I loved your synopsis!

Yep- Aaron Paul.

He’s got some good range, as an actor.

I think you need to give us some more character goals. That was really, good!
I definitely agree that Barb is hopeless. I feel sorry for the actress who has to play her… it’s really the writers’ fault.

I’m left wondering: who’d make the best *Survivor *contestant from this bunch. I wouldn’t mind seeing Lois take a shot (not literally, of course).

Yup, third that. I think he’s TERRIFIC in “Breaking Bad” and had no clue that it was the same actor until my husband pointed it out. It’s obvious to me now, but the characters are SO different that I wouldn’t have known if I hadn’t been told.

Wanda. She’d win by [ahem] default on the part of the other contestants.

She would’ve been my second choice.

am really going to miss Roman/Harry Dean Stanton. He was the most interesting character on the show. I actually liked Roman better than Bill in many ways. Sure, Bill is who you’d want for a neighbor, but he was every bit as much- if not more- of a hypocrite than Roman. At least Roman had the cajones to go on television and talk to the media and sing the polygamist version of “I Am What I Am”, having grasped the whole “better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you aren’t” concept so many closeted gay guys struggle with all their lives. While he was certainly corrupt and evil he’s 30 years older than Bill and Bill’s gaining on him.
Of course I totally would have sent his old ass to prison for life for the Joy Book and other offenses, but I’d still respect him more than Bill, if that makes sense.

Thanks again so much, Dogzilla, for the answers, especially about the Mormon form of praying. I could -swear- that I’d seen the Henricksons at least holding hands when saying grace in previous seasons. I’ve gotta say, it’s a very off-putting style at least to me. The very gesture of crossing arms, if you look at it head on, looks defensive…and does seem unrespectful (I don’t want to say disrespectful). I suppose there are little rituals to all religions, though, even those that claim to have no rituals, that to an outside might seem unusual.

tarragon, I think you’re right about them holding hands in previous seasons. I can check on my DVDs. I wonder if someone called the writers out on it, so this season they’re getting it right.

And thanks, Dogzilla for the commentary. It’s really helpful to be able to put motives & actions in context.

I snipped out the bits where you’re dead-on and have great questions/thoughts. But this bit, “I’m sure the LDS would have something to help with bills and the nursing…”

Maaaaybe not quite so much as one might think.

The church does have a charity program. I have never heard of the church helping with medical bills or nursing. Some people, after going deep into debt, getting second jobs, and borrowing from family, might still go to the bishop and ask for help with groceries or rent or something. Charity giving is left up to the discretion of individual bishops and mormons have very much a pioneer-spirit pull-yourself-up-by-your-own-bootstraps sort of mentality. Most mormons would rather gnaw their own feet off before asking for help and most bishops would gladly sit back and watch before giving the help. Many bishops will advise families to exhaust every other possible resource, including bleeding their parents dry, before they are willing to cut a check or hand over a food voucher.

We just had a long thread about the church’s charity programs on the postmormon boards. People posted their experiences when they just got into trouble with bills or lost a job or something (no cancer diagnoses mentioned). Not one had gotten regular help (as in every week or once a month) consistently. Some people had been asked to work on church farms or in the canneries to pay with labor for whatever food/groceries were being given out. The bishops are supposed to help anyone who asks, but they can determine if they think the person is taking advantage, or gaming the system, and just say no. Often, they will not give help to anyone who isn’t paying tithing. (It always comes down to that. :rolleyes:)

Mainstream Christians might ask, how can you pay tithing when you can’t even afford diapers?

And that would be a damn good question, which I cannot answer. That is exactly why some people leave. And no, we cannot understand what happens to the tithing that is paid in because when people ask for help, you’d think it would be like Social Security and you’d get something back out. However, it just doesn’t seem to work that way, generally speaking.

So, in Barb’s case with a cancer diagnosis and three kids, the Relief Society (that women’s group I mentioned upthread) would have probably passed a meal signup sheet and sent women over there with casseroles. Maybe they would have asked the Young Women to go help clean the house or babysit the kids (I gave up a lot of free babysitting back in the day). In my personal experience with the church, that sort of service to others is kind of hit or miss. People don’t do it because they care about the person, they do it because then they get to check off “community service/charity” off their salvation checklist. Some people will blow off their obligation or not show up. After a few weeks, the family might not hear from anyone. Or, there might be loving support and lots of casseroles every day for six months. Depends on the ward, depends on the people in it, depends on the prevailing attitude of the bishop of that ward. Some wards will absolutely rally around a family and help them with whatever they need. Those are usually the popular, “rock star” families of a given ward. (There’s a family or two like that in every ward for some reason, who are perceived as über-spiritual and special.)

In the thread at postmormon, some people mentioned having had surgery – like a c-section for twins – and never once did anyone acknowledge the birth of the baby, inquire as to the health of mom and baby, nor did anyone show up with a casserole. Ever. One guy posted that, say, a few days after the c-section, his bishop approached him and asked if his wife would be back at church next week to play the organ. He was more concerned about the woman “fulfilling her calling” than he was that she’d had major abdominal surgery and a newborn to care for. Then the husband beat himself up on our boards talking about, “Why the hell did I even go to church that day and leave my wife home alone when she needed me?” And it was because he was obligated to his calling and the guilt of blowing that off just one Sunday to help his wife out was way too overwhelming, so he went to church and did his job.

It’s entirely reasonable to me, based on these types of stories and my personal experiences, that Barb and Bill had to turn to Bill’s family – which would be the compound – for assistance because they just weren’t getting consistent help from the local mainstream LDS ward. Not the help they needed anyway.

Oh, but yeah, adoption is pretty common among mormons. It seems clear that Barb and Bill must not be all that bright because that never occurred to them.

I wondered about that, and I suspect these answers are wrapped up in what their financial state was before they tried to open Home Plus. That’s something we really don’t know anything about, and it would have a massive impact on how easy it would be for Bill to get a loan from a real bank to open his own store. Likewise, we don’t know whether they borrowed the money for the business before or after Barb got sick and they had massive medical bills. Hell, I’m not sure they’ve even explicitly said whether Roman gave them start-up money in exchange for a portion of the store or if they mortgaged a portion of the store after it was established.

The scenario that makes most sense to me is this: Bill and Barb are comfortably middle-class, and they’re talking about opening their own store in the near future when she gets sick and they get hit with these huge medical bills that do a number on their credit score and make it hard for them to get a business loan. At the same time, Barb is so sick they all think she’s going to die. They turn to the compound for help for reasons you’ve laid out, and Roman sends Nikki to do what needs doing partly to put the former Prophet’s grandson in his debt, and also to keep her eyes peeled for any information that would be useful to him.

Since Roman has been so helpful so far, and because they don’t have any other good options for getting a business loan, Bill asks him for the money to start Home Plus. They strike a deal that benefits them both–Roman gets eyes and ears in the home of a potential rival, his daughter well-supported financially, and a new revenue stream for his own coffers, and Bill gets someone to cook, clean and breed for him after Barb dies plus the business. Barb goes along with it both because she simply doesn’t have the strength to fight the cancer and They Whose Genitals Make Them the Deciderers, and she wants Bill and her kids to have someone to take care of them when she dies, which they all think is going to be soon.

That last is the reason they never considered adoption–you can’t adopt kids if you’re dead. There are a lot of references throughout the series to Barb being on her deathbed, so her being so sick they all think she’s going to die isn’t just my speculation. By the time she recovered and adoption would have been an option, the polygamy was fait accompli.

CCL, I think you nailed it!

Nicki IS pretty, too, and superficially charming when it suits her to be. I could see Bill deciding he’s “supposed to” go the polygamy route just because he has a pretty young girl in the house. Isn’t that what happened with Margene?

OK, I have refrained from piping in here because I haven’t seen the latest episodes. (I don’t have HBO, and I am waiting to borrow the rest of the previous seasons from my sister. I am only in the middle of season 2). As many of you may know, I am a currently practicing member of the LDS church. Dogzilla does provide some insights from his perspective, but he seems to take the most negative and snide view possible. Folding your arms during as prayer is hostile to God? Not invoking his name at the beginning of a prayer might send the prayer to Satan? Fast and Testamony Meeting is a cultish mind-control practice? A non-temple marriage is akin to prostitution? There is nothing here I recognize from my decades of church membership. It all says more about Dogzilla’s negative perspective than the church I know, nor the hundreds of members (both good and bad) I deal with on a daily basis.

A couple of things Dogzilla has said are flat out wrong. 12 year olds can perform blessings for the healing of the sicK? Nope. The church doesn’t help with medical bills? Surprise to my family who relied on the Church’s support to pay for my father-in-laws year long cancer battle. Bishops routinely lecture brides and grooms they are marrying that their marriage is second class? Not in the maybe 75-90 wedding I have attended across the Country.

I guess what I’m saying is that Dogzilla is a very biased source. I recognize that I am, too. If you want to discuss the latest episode of a TV show, great. He can add some perspective, and the perspective of a bitter ex-member can bbe valuable. But understand he is just one view, and an extreme one to my view.

Dogzilla is a she and I have never claimed to be 100% perfectly accurate, nor have I claimed to be completely fair and unbiased. I am simply offering interpretations based upon my personal experiences and that of mormons I know as well as exmormons.

To wit, I did not say that folding your arms is hostile to god, I said I thought it was disrespectful because it’s a defensive posture. That is an opinion and you are welcome to disagree with it.

F&T meeting is a cult mind control practice, see also Steve Hassan’s “Combatting Mind Control.” Its primary purpose is to reinforce the belief systems of the faithful.

Reloy3, obviously you and I have had very different experiences within the church and I fully expected some turbo TBM to come in here and go on the attack. I welcome you to offer your own perspectives and insights in these threads as the season progresses so that our nevermormon Doper friends here get a more balanced picture. I respectfully suggest that we agree to disagree and would really like to read your insights right alongside mine.

All here are welcome to visit lds.org as well as exmormon and postmormon websites if anyone is interested in picking apart my accuracy or yours. Google Fu is your friend.

Reloy3, I would like to second Dogzilla’s invitation to share your insights in this and subsequent threads about “Big Love.” Although you both clearly will disagree about many different aspects of LDS traditions/lifestyles, as long as you both focus on providing commentary and background information about happenings in the show, then I believe it would be beneficial for all those that are following the show on these boards. I hope to hear more from you in the future.

Also, thank you Dogzilla for keeping the discussion civil and enlightening. Cheers.

Also, Reloy3, if you have some time… is there any way you’d consider acknowledging anything I posted that is accurate, as well as clarifying the points I made that are inaccurate?

I have been out of the church for 20 years and I’m a woman, so I’ve obviously never held the priesthood. I can’t possibly comment on the male perspective with any degree of accuracy. Nor have I been through the temple (save for baptisms for the dead), so I couldn’t possibly comment on those ordnances with much more than a third-hand hearsay degree of knowledge.

I would like to avoid an ad hominem attack approach to these discussions. Attacking my credibility, as opposed to attacking my “facts” (or opinions) will only serve to undermine yours. I think a TBM perspective would be enlightening for all of us. Why can’t we work together to provide commentary, instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater? And by that I mean, I posted a few things that were inaccurate, okay, cool. So that doesn’t mean that everything I posted was 100% bullshit.

I did try to temper my comments with “it depends on the bishop” and “it depends on the ward,” and “sometimes things are a little different in Utah than out in the ‘mission field’.” I am trying very hard to not sweep all mormon doctrine and behavior into a single category, acknowledging that many many mormons have very different experiences with the church. However, one of the writers is an exmormon (and won an Oscar, IIRC, for his Milk screenplay) so if you’re looking for a show that defends the faith, you should probably look elsewhere.