"Big Love" on HBO [spoilers for season 4 episodes]

Cafe Society
41

See, I think that’s Lost Boy Syndrome.

Bill is a Lost Boy, and by that I mean: when boys on the plyg compounds get to be a certain age where they like girls and maybe like one particular girl, and some girl likes a particular boy… the cult leaders can’t have that. They cannot afford to take those cute young nubile innocent virginal little girls off the Joy Book marriage market. So they oust the boys. They simply drive 'em out to the desert and abandon them. It’s up to the boys to figure out where to live and how to survive without any parents, marketable skills, or social support of any kind. There are organizations in Arizona and Utah that try to catch these guys and help them assimilate into a normal life.

I’ve posted a lot about how women and girls are socialized in the mormon religion, but I don’t generally say much about men and boys. The men and boys are elevated to superhero status. When a boy is 12, the holy priesthood is conferred upon the kid. That means that your average male sixth grader in Utah has more authority and power in his own family than his mother does. Women and girls are taught to be subservient, obedient and never, ever, ever question anything a man says or does. You simply do not challenge a man.

So Bill was raised with this overdeveloped sense of entitlement because he has dangly bits, and the women in his life (mom, sister moms, sisters, cousins, etc.) were raised to play into that and feed the male egos. Bill was not socialized to A) think through decisions critically (because testimony of the church’s truth is gained through warm fuzzy emotions), and B) Entertain anyone else’s questions about his decisions, motivations, or wisdom. It’s a huge stretch (and a credit to Barb) that Bill even listens to his wives at all, nevermind that he sometimes actually capitulates to them. He could just as easily believe he is entitled to waterboard his own infant children to teach them not to cry as he could listen to Margene wax poetic about her six-figure business. He was raised to believe he could and should tell her to quit the business, that Barb should not work outside the home ever, and that Nikki needs to get off her high horse and quit taking the pill so they can have more babies. Many mormon men, especially the fundies, would be that dictatorial.

So it’s really no surprise that Bill doesn’t think through these ridiculous hare-brained schemes and that he acts surprised when his wives start expressing their concerns.

42

Yes, I know, but the culture of avoiding the appearance of evil is so pervasive… Mormons will break the rules on the down low, and there are what is called “jack mormons” (people who believe in the doctrine, but don’t live by all the rules)… Like I said, I have a hard time squaring up what seems to me to be two so very conflicting ideas. I mean, I wasn’t even allowed to play solitaire at home because you had to touch those evil face cards.

Speaking of jokes:

Why do mormons stop having children at 35?

Because 36 kids is just too damn many!
:smiley:

and

Why should you always take at least two mormons with you fishing?

Because if you only take one, he’ll drink all your beer!

:smiley:

43

That’s exactly why you couldn’t have a Mormon-friendly casino in or around SLC, or really anywhere else that people had any other reasons to go to–righteous people might see you. But if you put the casino on a [del]savage[/del] Indian reservation an hour and a half away…well, nobody you know is going to see you, because they have no other reason to be in that area. Except the other people who are also breaking the rules, and they’re not going to tell anyone they saw you at the casino. That would be like the auditor guy announcing that he saw Albie cruising for dick in the park, ya know?

Also, you have to keep in mind that it’s easier for people to break the rules if they can tell themselves it’s only a little bit naughty. Take the Baptist Heaven joke for instance–even my husband’s staunchly Baptist Mamaw who I don’t think even owns a standard deck of playing cards will have a glass or two of her neighbor’s homemade wine to be sociable. After all, it’s just a little glass of wine here and there, and it would hurt the woman’s feelings not to accept the glass (or the occasional half-gallon jug to take home.) It’s not like we’re talking about real drinking, here–there’s nary a drop of hard liquor on the place. That sort of rationalization is common; I know many church-going Baptists who will happily have a beer or two but would never dream of touching real alcohol.

I would think that sort of thing would be equally common with Mormons. If you don’t have booze and cigarettes and skimpy cocktail waitress outfits and burlesque shows and such, I think it would be easy enough for the more flexible-minded to convince themselves that it’s not a real casino and therefor isn’t really so bad. Especially when you think about things like slot machines and video poker or even roulette and craps, where you don’t ever touch an actual card, I could see people even convincing themselves it’s not even really gambling. If you’ve got a big playground and kid-friendly entertainers…why, it’s a just big family theme park with some videogames, is all!

Never underestimate the power of the human mind to justify what you want to do anyway.

And it’s not just Bill who doesn’t stop to think before he acts, though he is by far the one who gets most offended if anybody calls him on it–as I told my husband the other night, “By Og, The Penis has spoken!” complete with fist-crash on the couch. But Nikki and Margie are apt to just say or do whatever occurs to them without considering the consequences, too.

44

I totally understand what you are saying but I have to say that, in general, this sort of thing is not as equally common with mormons as you might think. Do not underestimate the power of guilt- and shame-based mind control. Baptists are a church/religion. Mormons belong to a cult. The programming is very very difficult to rewire.

These are people who go confess to their bishop if they tongue-kissed their date. :smack: There are people who will not take their garments off (the special mormon underwear) for sex, or for the doctor, or even to shower. They’ll leave one arm in a sleeve, wash the rest of the body, then move the garment to the other arm to wash the last arm. I am not kidding or exaggerating. My parents wouldn’t even take me into a restaurant that had a bar, nevermind the fact that nobody at our table was going to be drinking.

Yes, there will always be a few jack mormons who can justify doing whatever the hell they want. In general, however, the mind control runs waaaaayyyy too deeply. A lot of people who leave the mormon church struggle for a long time with an overwhelming fear that god will strike them dead at any moment. It sounds sort of ridiculous to our ears, but you cannot know how much fear and shame and guilt is drilled into these people from birth. They really, truly, honestly believe that, now they’ve left the church that they will die. God will punish them. Those people are not going to sneak off to the res for a little black jack and a few cocktails.

The jack mormons, the nonmormons married to mormons, the “new order” mormons who pick and choose doctrine to which they will adhere? Yeah, those people are the Henricksons’ casino target market. As well as nonmormons who just aren’t into the whole T&A, hookers & blow atmosphere of a Vegas casino (talking out my ass; have never been to a casino in Vegas, only in New Orleans and on a cruise ship).

45

Got a report back from my postmormon friends:

The song sung/played during Roman’s funeral was “Going Home” Dvorak’s 9th Symphony.

Not in the mormon hymnal, but I understand it’s very popular at mormon funerals, as is a dish called “funeral potatoes.” Funeral potatoes, near as I can tell are potatoes au gratin with maybe a cracker crumb crust baked on top. I think there’s a can of Campbell’s Cream of Mushroom soup involved. :: shudder ::

46

That’s it Dogzilla, thank you! Knew it was familiar, and probably why Dvorak resonates with me. Now I just need to find a decent recording of it.

Hmm, I’m familiar with funeral potatoes too and never had too much exposure to Mormans. In E. Montana they are always a staple at potlucks or funerals. I’ve had a lot of variations of them but they do have condensed soup, potatoes, cheese and sour cream in common along with some kind of crust, generally cornflakes.

I really appreciate your detective efforts, they should list all their songs in the credits somewhere. They do mention some of their works but not all.

47

I see you’re in Northern Idaho. That would be smack dab in the middle of the mormon corridor (Vancouver to Arizona and into Mexico), AKA The Morridor. :smiley:

So I would expect you to have encountered funeral potatoes.

I bet you’ve also seen green jello with bits of carrots suspended in it at potlucks and family reunions. :wink:

48

Oh yeah, all kinds of Mormons here, regular, Flds, Jacks, we got 'em all! Along with at least two kinds of Mennonites, Amish and Dukobors.

My first 18 years though was in N. Central Montana, with nary a Mormon around that I recall. All I remember were Catholics, Protestants and Hutterites.

I think funeral potatoes and lime green jello w/ carrots is common to all. Or worse yet, little marsmallows or raisins.

49

Just how much credibility is Alby going to have at Juniper Creek once word get’s our that he was having an affair with another man? :dubious: He’ll be lucky if he doesn’t end up getting lynched.

It’s interesting that Bill has seemed to be far more accepting Sarah marrying Scott then Barb. I suspect Bill’s come to the conclusion that; A) there’s nothing he can really do to stop it, and B) he’s relived that Sarah’s “passing from his hand” to Scott’s and he won’t be responsible for her anymore. He was willing to compromise regarding the wedding. Sarah get’s married at home with the family present, but it’s a civil ceremony presided over by a JP, not a sealing presided over by himself. I was surprised at that. At first I thought Sarah & Scott married at the courthouse and Bill was then going to perform a private sealing in the yard.

50

I love You Tube! Here’s a particularly nice rendition of Going Home by Libera.

I’m buying their CD, though I wish it were a video CD 'cause they’re cute little shits.

51

I’m really enjoying this thread. Thanks to **Dogzilla **& others who have provided the ExMo perspective & insight.

I grew up Catholic, and in my community at least, it’s pretty much cafeteria Catholicism – pick & choose what you want to believe in & do. In my family we went from bible readings at dinner during Lent to “cheating” with meat on Fridays when it suited us. Only one brother is still “practicing.”

As far as Mormon hymns go, I recall having a Catholic hymnal at work once (I think I “borrowed” it as I was learning piano!) and a Mormon co-worker wanted to know what a Mormon hymn was doing in the book. It was a fairly common song, IIRC. So I guess in addition to most Mormon hymns being written specifically for Mormons, they’re pretty much known as “proprietary.”

52

Dogzilla, I hope you won’t mind me asking a question (or two!) about LDS practices. I just noticed in this episode that the Juniper Creek group and Bill’s group crossed their arms when praying. I don’t recall seeing this previously; in fact, my recollection is of praying while holding hands. Is this “normal” Mormon practice?

JJ is totally creeping me out! I don’t know about the lack of fingernails issue, but I’m starting to think it might be caused by inbreeding. And what does JJ have on Wanda?! Something very precious to her?! :eek:

53

I’m calling this one–I think I nailed it.

54

My goal for the characters:

Nikki- gets some freaking therapy

[Will Smith from Men in Black]…because… damn![/Will Smith]

then writes a tell all memoir- Polygamy Princess. Eventually gets a talk show and finds purpose as a vapid celeb.

Margene- becomes a HSN millionairess, wises up, leaves Bill, but still occasionally shags him by choice when she wants somebody more mature than her 19 year old camera man toyboy. He still shags her as well because “hard on equals divine revelation” after all. (I’m wondering how long before he decides God wants him to have a 3-way.)

Barb- hopeless. I’d say she leaves Bill, marries a nice divorced Mormon convert, lives happily ever after, but she’s not happy unless she’s miserable.

Sarah and Scott intercept a suitcase full of money lost in the desert by a dumbass stoner who’s selling meth with his former high school chemistry teacher and they move as far the hell away from the family as possible, though they still trade Christmas cards with Margene. They have two kids and open a goat farm and tour the country with their retro metal hair band on weekends.

Teensy- unlike her sister she’s passionate about her dad’s church, so much so she marries Don Embry, which isn’t icky because she’s now played by a 22 year old actress.

JJ- dies of a rare genetic condition that only appears in 4th generation inbreeding. Luckily it skips his daughter Cara, who is now a hot stone masseur in St. George cashing in on her mom’s new found fame.

Bill: becomes prophet of Juniper Creek. This is what he was born to do. Barb stays with him, he takes several more wives, Lois is happier than an illegal parrot in a hothouse as the Queen Mother, and bankrupts Frank until he’s working as a custodian at his former KFC. Bill tries to lead the people of Juniper Creek into the early 20th century but meets with only mixed success; basically a few kids get into the Internet and rock music but the problem of “what do you do when birth rates are roughly 50-50 and some men have 15 wives” thing is no less a problem for Bill than for Roman and his predecessors, so the Lost Boys continue, though Bill at least does plan for a pension and technical training program for them.

Alby leaves Juniper Creek and his wives and becomes a florist and entertainment entrepreneur in Vegas. Lura attempts to lure him back by taking testosterone but it doesn’t work. Strangely he, and not Nicky, winds up with the adorable Ray Henry.

Adaleen refuses to accept the investment of Bill as Prophet. She hires Wanda with a pack of SweetTarts and a kind word to kill Hollis Greene by giving him Viagra laced with Visine and then blowing up the rest area where he goes to relieve himself (also giving Alby second degree burns in the next stall) and then marries Brother Selma and founds a rival cult that manufactures bestselling cat food products- Nine Wives.

===========================

So do you think Alby is really that attracted to conservator dude or that he’s just trying to unnerve him? And do you think that Lura and the other Albyettes know his not so secret secret or that they even much care?

55

Christ Sampiro, I about spit coffee everywhere. Send that off to HBO, you’ve written the final season.

56

I don’t mind at all. I’ll be happy to field questions – to the best of my knowledge – throughout the Big Love season. Dopers are welcome to PM me as well.

The answer to this one is yes, that is standard mormon prayer stance. I always thought it was really weird and it seemed disrespectful to me. But even toddlers are taught that proper reverence is shown by bowing your head and folding your arms. It looks like closed off body language to me, like you’re telling god you refuse to listen to him. :wink:

Dog forbid you pray like a regular Christian and put your palms together in front of you. Generally, at meal times and such, there was no holding hands either. Always arms folded in front of you. For family prayers (some families pray together 3-4 times a day), you gather in a circle, on your knees, arms folded. You don’t sit back on your legs either.

There is also a sort of template standard for how prayers are conducted. I have not paid attention in Big Love to see if that’s been adhered to. It probably has been because I think I’d notice if they went “out of order.” It goes like this:

  1. Always address the diety specifically, so that Stan (satan) doesn’t intercept your prayer and think it’s for him. :rolleyes: God is generally referred to as “Heavenly Father.” Mormons don’t pray to Jesus, Mary, or Joseph Smith (contrary to some misconceptions).

  2. Always thank the diety for whatever blessing you wish to thank him for. You don’t go asking for stuff without expressing gratitude first.

  3. Then you get to ask for whatever you’re asking for. Bless the food (“so it may nourish and strengthen our bodies”), bless the sick Gramma, bless the cat, bless daddy that he may find his car keys… You get the idea.

  4. Always close in the name of Jesus Christ. Apparently, if you’re not specific about that, again, Stan can intercept your prayer and screw everything up. Or something. I was not clear on that point.

Mormons do not believe in scripted prayers. The idea is that they believe in personal revelation, so you fold your arms and quiet your mind so that you can receive the revelation regarding what you’re supposed to pray about. This is referred to as “allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you.”

57

:: also horking coffee out my nose :: :smiley:

I think Alby is making a power play to gain control and screw up the investigation.

I don’t know if Lura and the other Alby acolytes are aware of his… tendencies, but I do know that Nikki knows because she’s made some comments in the past.

58

I think you did, too.

I agree, it is. And I think they’ll end up going that route with him. I don’t understand a lot of the show’s dramatic choices, but Bill as prophet is just too (potentially) interesting to pass up. The rest of your ideas would be very entertaining but I think you should complete your Star Wars prequel before moving on to this project.

59

Mormonism question: since the head of a family is the priesthood holder (provided he’s in good standing with the mainstream LDS church) does he have the power, either legally or in the church, to perform marriages?

I was proud that I actually caught that about Roman/Joseph Smith being buried at night. I’ve wondered if he’s supposed to be a descendant of Jedediah Grant, which would be ironic as it would also make him a nephew (great nephew, whatever) of Heber J. Grant, who was the last president of the church to practice polygamy (though he stopped in the 1890s) and woudl explain how the compound has been selling their salamander style documents to the “bastard church” for many years.

60

Speaking of back story, I still wish they would “tell me like I’m four” exactly how Bill went from Juniper Creek outcast/mainstream Mormon in good standing to polygamous patriarch. I know that Nikki was Barb’s nurse and her father fronted him the money for the hardware store (and perhaps medical bills) as a sort of dowry, but there’s a lot of questions left unanswered.

Why on Earth would he either seek, or even accept if offered, help from Roman Grant, the man who destroyed his family by usurping his grandfather’s position (possibly after murdering him) and was responsible for his mother living in poverty and Bill being a teenaged drifter?

I’m guessing that women are diagnosed with cancer everyday in Salt Lake City just as they are in every other big city- most don’t do anything that drastic and I’m sure the LDS church would have something to help with the bills and the nursing and the childcare and the like if needed. I’m also sure that adoption isn’t unheard of if she still wanted the family to grow- her sister adopted a kid.

Even if he had a ‘revelation’ to practice the Principle it’s not like Roman’s is the only game in town. Don Embry’s church seems to be a lot more mainstream, and then there were people like Alex Josephwho went their on route, so he didn’t have to take the daughter of a man he regards as not just a charlatan but a false prophet (i.e. a man who is damned to outer darkness in Bill’s estimation) into his family.

And how the hell did Barb say “sure hon, after you get back from marrying the crazy woman as my junior wife could you pick me up some jujubes?” when she had NO experience with polygamy save for a distant ancestor. Did she have a revelation too?

And while JJ and Cara Lynn add drama, how did everybody at Juniper Creek just forget about this? Even if she had Cara Lynn in Kansas, wouldn’t Lois have at least known that Nikki was married before? It wasn’t a secret at the time.

It’s never really made sense and I’ve always hoped they’d retcon it.