I was really bored the first 2/3 of the episode, but completely engrossed for the end.
This season has some incredible plot points, some really deep questions that I find myself pondering all week, incredible performances, but most of the episodes just drag in some way.
I read months ago Ana was coming back and I knew she was going to be pregnant.
I am annoyed by the inconsistent timeline. If Margene can pop out a baby, Ana can get really pregnant, a casino gets planned, built, and OPEN, shouldn’t Ben be 18 by now? I really really really hope next season takes a reasonable leap forward in time.
I was yelling at the tv with JJ and Adaleen “ew ew ew EW! no no no NO! Yuck. ew. gross. no! ack! gag! make it stop!”.
I think what I find most interesting about this season is that Nikki is the awesome one, the sane one, the balanced one, while Margene and especially Barb are off the deep end. Barb has had some stressful things happen to her, but as she is written and played, she is very hard to like and sympathize/empathize with. I think that was the point of the writers this season: make us feel for the bad characters (Nikki, Alby, Adaleen, Frank) and want to smack the good ones (Barb, Margene).
I knew square-jaw was going to off himself. Actually, I was very impressed with that actor’s performance in the scene where he’s talking to the “re-orientation” guy and vehemently insisting that he is unable to change himself. But it was at that moment that it occurred to me that Dale might commit suicide rather than continue to live in his world.
I think it’s absurd that there are only going to be three more episodes. It seems like just yesterday that the damn season began. That’s unfair to the audience who waited an awfully long time for the show.
I suppose this is my greatest problem: I can’t understand that type of faith. I’m more of the Mark Twain variety: “I concluded [Carson City] was no place for a devout Presbyterian, and so I did not remain one very long”. If I concluded that Mormonism was just dead wrong on the issue of homosexuality being curable or anything like an ‘addiction’ in spite of all evidence to the contrary I think it would just lead me to question other teachings of Mormonism and even in the shadow of the Brigham Young statue in the middle of SLC the information refuting Mormonism- not just by anti-Mormon whack jobs (which they addressed on the show- the evangelicals v. Mormons issue) but by cool headed and reliable types and just general histories with no axe to grind - it’s all freely available easily found info. He’s an intelligent guy, why not just figure out Mormonisms far more about theocracy and money than about giving a damn over souls and is one of the last religions (at least in order of chronological formation) that should be pointing fingers on anybody’s alternative lifestyle. Again, if it was a 16 year old kid or the village idiot it’s one thing but this guy’s intelligent, has access to information, has reason to doubt his faith (their teaching on gays which he knows are wrong) so- what’s the disconnect?
I’m not saying that it’s not realistic, it happens all the time in Mormonism and Catholicism and pretty much every other Christian and non Christian religion I’m sure, but I just don’t understand it. I grew up in a religiously conservative household in a super conservative area of the country and I had figured this out by the time I was half his age, what stops these people?
[This isn’t directed at Argent Towers obviously but at this part of the episode.]
On a completely unrelated topic save that it’s about this episode: I wonder if JJ plans to honestly seduce Adaleen and make her fall in love with him so that she’ll put her knowledge of UEB assets and procedures to work for him. While he’s not exactly Channing Tatum she’s spent the last 40 years or so married to a man old enough to be her father, frail for the past few years and with 13 other wives to service, so he may be seeing her decades of unfulfilled sexual needs as the key to the UEB. (Adaleen and Roman had an interesting marriage on the show; I always got that she genuinely loved the old charlatan.)
Also, when she called Nicky screaming I assumed she told her why, but later seemed the first time Nicky had heard of Alby’s “If Mama gets married she’ll leave the Big House” scheme.
How do you think Alby will react to his boyfriend’s death once the shock clears? Which is to say, who’s got the most reason to run? I would guess he’ll blame Bill somehow since he always does, but Lura might be re-sealed to Hollis Greene or JJ and Wanda’s dad sometime soon.
As best I recall that was a new revelation. Which makes Barb’s reaction a bit over the top. I mean, Margene is a full-on part of the family, right? And Bill wasn’t just engaged to Ana, he actually married her. So he clearly intended for Ana to become as much a part of the family as Margene is. Seems like a trivial technicality. Then again, Bill was about as hard on himself when it first happened as Barb was when she found out, so I guess they’re trying to convey that it really is a major failing.
I’ve argued that from the beginning, but in the subsequent two episodes the writers have really beaten us over the head with the fact that Ben is just in full-on teenager tantrum mode and running away from home. I think Bill’s “I only told him to leave for a day or two” from last episode was a bullshit denial, but the reality that he probably meant a couple weeks isn’t exactly a crime against humanity, either.
I can’t really blame Ben too much, jumping at the opportunity to make a clean break. If I recall the earlier seasons correctly, he and Sarah were both of the same basic mindset: Not into the polygamy. Now that Sarah has successfully made a clean break I’m sure Benny is ready to do anything to get away no matter who it hurts. Letting Bill take the fall for kicking him out is a total dick move, but hey, he’s 17 years old. Dick moves are in your nature at that age.
I thought it was a great episode, but was disappointed to see more Ana. I didn’t mind her character that much but I just think there are already so many things going on right now that it’s just overkill.
Ben, the casino, running for office, the problems with Marilyn, Nikki and her daughter, Nikki and her pregnancy issues, Margene’s business, the compound, Bill’s wacky parents, Joey killing Roman… there’s enough to deal with and wrap up in just three more episodes.
Did I space out and forget how the Indian baby and Sarah got resolved?
I really liked how they ended with Bill showing the wives the house he had/has planned for them. Although I would never want to live under the same roof with two other women I think it was what they needed to see and realize at the time. They seem to be feeling isolated and pulled in different directions and that was a nice way of pulling it all back together.
Agreed. It’s going from out of hand to a little ridiculous.
You’re just spacing. Bill and Barb went over to Sarah’s apartment to lay down the law. As they were telling Sarah she had to return the baby Scott came home. Bill gave us a glimpse of the bedrock misogyny when he told Scott to “control your woman.” Scott told Bill (paraphrased) to go fuck himself. Sarah and Scott then conferred in private. Scott said he’d support her no matter what she chose, and Sarah decided to give the baby back.
It was really a weird scene, IMO, and I think Bill’s “control your woman” line was out of character. I think they were trying to show us just how out of control Bill was getting. Which of course dovetails back into your original point that they’ve really crammed too many stories into this season.
Yes, that is typical. Mainstream mormons are instructed, when they receive their first garments in the temple, to wear them “next to the skin.” This requires women to wear their bra and panties (or bloomers in Adaleen’s case) over the garments.
I did not want to offend currently practicing mormons by posting that link – these garments are sacred to them. Because I am an exmormon, I was trying to avoid the appearance of making fun of mormons.
But that’s what I saw in my parents’ laundry growing up. You must have a current temple recommend(ation) to be able to purchase the garments.
No, in one of the earlier seasons Margie let it slip during on conversation among the wives, and Barb and Nikki both reacted about like Barb did to the thing with Ana, and like they all did when Ben and then Sarah started having sex. Premarital sex is a big, big deal to these people, and later marrying that person doesn’t magically make it okay. Folks understand someone backsliding once; it still doesn’t make it okay, but people understand it. But when you start repeating that behavior, it stops being backsliding and becomes your normal sinful behavior. For someone whose whole family is built around religious beliefs, habitual sin is a big honking deal, especially when you’ve landed on other people like a ton of bricks for committing the exact same sin.
See, I never got the feeling that he really did mean a couple of weeks, either. I think he meant indefinitely and was perfectly happy for the kid to stay gone right up until the entire family got all over him about the whole mess. Then when it suited his desires for the kid to come back, he has to come back RIGHT NOW, because by golly whatever Bill wants is what has to happen.
I take it you don’t remember him dating the twins from the compound. He got all into the whole Principle thing once he figured out that he could get a steady stream of new pussy by taking more wives and even before that he was never grossed out by the whole thing like Sarah was. Part of it was probably that he was younger when they started this whole thing and that Don had a son about his age so he had something of a polygamist peer group that she didn’t have to reinforce the normalcy of what their family is doing. But I’m sure a lot of it is that he sees his dad sailing blythely along getting whatever he wants and it looks like a damn nice way to live.
And frankly, I don’t think he’s letting Bill take the fall for anything. Bill kicked him out–arguing over the intended duration doesn’t change the underlying truth of the kicking out. No, Bill wanted him gone, and now Bill wants him back. Sadly, at the age of nearly 50 Bill is finally learning that other people don’t always arrange their lives around what he wants.
According to my six years of mormon indoctrination, sex outside of marriage is the sin second only to murder. It’s the most egregious thing you can do outside of burying a hatchet in someone’s skull.
Missed the edit window: **CrazyCatLady **is correct in suggesting that later marrying someone you boffed outside of marriage doesn’t necessarily make it okay. IF Bill had gone on and sinned no more, then yes, that could be eventually forgiveable. What I think makes Barb really lose her mind is that he has clearly shown – by sleeping with Ana outside of marriage – that he is not repentant for sleeping with Margene outside of marriage. This is more about repentance and redemption and true humility than anything else. Demonstrating a continued pattern of sinful behavior without demonstrating any genuine remorse probably makes this worse in Barb’s mind. One time, she can forgive and Bill tried to make it right by marrying Margene. A second time… hey, now he’s just a horndog and how long will it be before someone else catches his eye, he boffs her, knocks her up, and then he’s got to bring yet another person into this sham of a marriage? I don’t think that makes it right, and clearly, Barb doesn’t either.
This may piss off some of the Doper mormons on this board, but I am struck by how similar Bill’s behavior is to Joseph Smith’s. It’s well documented, on the LDS geneology website (familysearch.org), that Joseph Smith was married to probably about 30 women, some of whom were 14 and some of whom were already married. Basically, anyone JS wanted to boff was told that god said she had to marry him. His first wife Emma, was not too pleased with this, which is why D&C 132 (The mormon scripture that justifies or commands polygamy) contains a very dire and strong warning to her personally that if she didn’t support polygamy in her marriage, she would be condemned. Same thing he told the girls and women he wanted to sleep with. Same thing JJ is doing… and not to far from how Bill is acting.
Just for the record, the conversation about Ben leaving went like this:
Ben: “I was just thinking it would be best if I left for a while.”
Bill: “I was thinking the same thing.” [Leaves the room.]
And I felt Ben was kind of hoping Bill would tell him to stick around. I thought Ben was upset that Bill agreed he should go rather than at least making a show of telling him to stick around. Maybe I’m wrong; I’m sure being around everyone would have been difficult.
I can’t say I’m feeling sorry for Alby in all this. He’s lead a very fucked up life, but he’s still a snake in the grass. Bill’s speech was a nice (abbreviated) reminder of what the guy is really like when he’s not crushing someone. And Bill doesn’t know Alby left that pipe bomb for his mother either.
I’m not sure how much depth the writers go into in assigning Bill motives, but perhaps Bill is thinking “That’s not kicking a son out, kicking a son out is tossing them off the back of a truck with no money in a strange city when they’re 14”, while to Barb, who came from a normal and upper middle class family, sending Ben out of the house even if it’s to stay with his sister for a while is on par with driving Ishmael into the desert. (Sending Hagar into the desert she wouldn’t have a problem with at this point.)
I was suprised how naked and vulnerable Mary Kay Pace looked in them.
My first thought when Bill went on about it being what he wanted all along was Holy crap, it’s just like the “Big House” on the compound!.
If Barb’s a board member in her own right why wasn’t there a space for her name on the contract (she had to cross out Bill’s name)? How hard would it be for Bill to remove her from the board (can he)? Are Bill’s shares in his own name, or did he place them in her’s for some reason (& it simply never occured to him that she’d disobey him)?
Anybody else wonder what Greene’s plans for the bird dealer are? It looks like the dealer rated them out, but he seemed surprised to be taken into custody. Will Greene punish him for selling to the Henricksons or reward him for delivering them (ie by letting him have a little “fun” with Ben)?
In fact I like the Big House better- it looks like an old farmhouse while Bill’s place looks like a McMansion set country club or a mortuary. But agreed, way too compoundy- next he’ll start playing Roman’s prized guitar and get a robotic hand in a light saber duel with his dad to signal he’s becoming them.
I think the bird dealer is so out of his mind on [whatever substance] he probably doesn’t know he’s in Mexico or in the bird business. The Greenes are way more interesting villains than Alby- they’re so bizarre and amoral and I love his quirk of talking like a business letter (“Yours sincerely Hollis Greene P.S. What brand of firewall do you recommend for your PC?” was one of my favorite lines of the series and his explanation of his plans for Korea to the abducted kid was a wonderful piece of showing ‘batshit crazy but believes himself’). They’re based on the LeBarons I think, a schism from Short Creek/Colorado City who crossed the border a lot and were crazy as hell and way more murderous (towards outsiders and each other- Ervil LeBaron with his hit squad wives picked off several rival cultleaders and a few of his brothers and children) than Roman ever was.
Total aside: Bruce Dern was a health food and exercise advocate and rabid non-smoker way before it was popular and yet he’s one of the oldest 73 year olds I’ve ever seen. Nine years of marriage to Diane Ladd must have aged him 40 or something. (I’ve no idea if their divorce was friendly or un but I wonder if they considered her for Lois due to the ex-spouse chemistry; it’s interesting when former lovers share a screen.)
Heh, ouch to Diane Ladd, Sampiro even though Bruce Dern has “broken hard,” as they say–that could just be his genes. He probably thanks God that they’re not FLDS genes though.
Poor Dale - I think he probably felt he was left with no other alternative. Thanks to someone, here or elsewhere, who mentioned that it was William R. Moses who played the LDS Bishop in those scenes with Dale. I don’t think I’ll ever understand how anyone in their right (LOL) mind would think that someone could be “de-gayed.”
I’m in agreement on the Greenes as villians; although most of the FLDS families seem to have at least some genetic quirks due to years of in-breeding. I’ve read a very little bit about Ervil LeBaron and his clan and boy, they do sound like the Greenes are based on them. Totally creepy and evil.
And the new theme song has finally grown on me. laughs I have actually found myself humming it, usually unsuccessfully, as it seems to be a hard melody for me to follow. I really do enjoy this show, and am pleased to see it’s been renewed for another season.
OK, Garment wearing Mormon here chiming in. I’m a little hesitant to say to much, mostly because I am not really used to talking about my underwear or my sex life with relative strangers.
Dogzilla has it right. I would only comment on two minor issues: 1) I can’t imagine someone thinking they would be struck dead for taking off their Garments. On an average day I take mine off 2 or 3 times. (showers, excersize, romantic relations). If I were ever to make the decision to permanently remove them, it would mean I was either excommunicated or no longer a believing member. If I no longer believed, I don’t think it would bother me (other than getting used to a new style of underwear, when I wear regular boxers or briefs, it just feels weird because I’m not used to them). If I was still a believer, but excommunicated, I would undoubtedly feel really bad removing my garments - not out of fear, but out of a sense of loss.
I don’t think of the garments as a huge turn off. If anyone but me could see my wife in them, you would probably agree. (Yowza!!!) We have also spent more than our share on Victoria’s Secret style underwear, which we enjoy much the same as I imagine non-LDS couples do.
I have not taken or seen a survey of garment wearing Mormons, but I do not think this is typical at all. My garments are not in addition to underwear, they are my underwear. I have seen a number of garment wearing LDS men in a state of undress - locker rooms, college roomates, etc. - and I have never seen an exception.
As for what garment wearing women wear, I have less experience. My wife does wear her bra over her garments, but she only wears additional underwear when she needs to wear a pad, and then she wears it under her garments. The rest of the time, the garments are her underwear.
