Thank you Dogzilla, it is much appreciated.
Not quite, but it is considered a very serious sin.
That’s definitely what I was taught, in Young Women’s, in Sunday School, and from my own parents… over and over and over and over. I believe I heard Spencer W. Kimball say it a few times during General Conference.
Like **Pepperlandgirl **said a few threads ago, it is entirely possible for two people to be mormons in different parts of the world and have wildly different experiences.
Joseph Smith was married a number of times, but the exact number is very disputed. Yes,l some of whom (2, I believe) were 14, and one of which, particularly creepy to modern eyes, was informed that she was commanded to marry him a few years earlier, but waited until she was 14. (This is actually one of my wife’s ancestors.) On the other hand, 14 seems shocking now, but marriages were made much younger in the 1840’s than they are today.
I also don’t believe that sex was Joseph Smith’s sole motivation. There were women sealed to him after he died, there were women he married that seemed to be because he felt the need to be morally responsible to him (most notably his brother, Don Carlos’ widow), and a few who reported he married them in name only and there was never any sex.
It is also unclear how much sex he actually had. With the exception of two allegations which are very much in dispute, Smith didn’t begin plural marriages until 1841, and then didn’t really get going until 1842 and 1843 until shortly before his death in June of 1844. During this time, his and others journals are pretty extensive (he had up to 3 personal scribes/secretaries), which provide pretty good details of his time. He travelled a lot, Emma insisted he stay at their home at night when he was in Nauvoo, and there are frequent records of people going to the Smith home in the middle of the night to meet with Joseph, finding him there. It is notable that, although Smith was fertile (he had 9 children with Emma, most dying in infancy), he doesn’t seem to have had any children with any of the plural wives (there were claims, but so far, genetic testing has shown those people claiming to be his children were not). In sum, if frequent sex with a harem was his goal, he didn’t seem to be very successful at it.
As to the pressure the plural wives were under to marry him, it is hard to tell. Certainly some reported it was a thrilling and flattering prospect, for both the woman and her family. Certainly some pressure was brought. It really seems todepend on what happened to the wife after 1845 - those who went to Utah with the Mormomns who continued to practice polygamy, they (generally) reported that it was wonderful to be Joseph’s wife, and a few claimed to be his wife who couldn’t have been. His plural wives were treated with some celebrity. Those who stayed in Illinois (generally) reported it was a horror forced upon them.
But generally,Smith seemed to enjoy sex, liked his plural wives, and saw nthing wrong with the arrangement other than Emma vascillated on the issue and he feared what society in general would think of it. I do think he genuainely believed his plural wives were part of his spiritual, eternal family, and that sex with them was not a sin.
speaking only for myself, I sure appreciate the insights gaine here by reading posts from our friends Reloy3 and Dogzilla.
Thanks.
Seconded. And sincere apologies for when I’m offensive to Mormons; I certainly don’t like being judged by the stereotypes of gays and Alabamians (though I concede some are, of the general population of Alabamians especially, more accurate than others) but will admit to being somewhat stingy with extending this respect to others. And we can all agree that Pentecostals and Southern Baptists drive us flipping nuts.
For those not familiar with Ervil LeBaron (mentioned up thread) he was movie star handsome in his day: pic. His family was barking mad and got expelled (or led a schism from) the ‘mainstream’ fundamentalist apostates that had its base in Mexico (Colonia Juarez among other places) and like the Greenes just got loopier and loopier. Ervil started knocking off his brothers (one of whom had a congregation comprised mostly of goats, another one of whom worked in UFOs to his group’s theology, another one sometimes came into SLC like Ernest T. Bass and did things like block traffic at rush hour by doing push-ups to prove he was the “one mighty and strong”, and some of whom were more or less normal). LeBaron took many wives- at least about 20- and had more than 60 children, at least two of whom he had killed (including a pregnant daughter). Like Hollis Green he claimed to be (among other things) a descendant of the Fourth Apostle, and claimed to have “letters” proving Joseph Smith left the church to one of his ancestors, and claimed at times to be the reincarnation of Joseph Smith and of Brigham Young (which would be a neat trick since their lives overlapped by more than 30 years), and ultimately was sent to prison and spent everyday working non-stop on his manifestoes which make fascinating reading (really).
One of his victims was Rulon Allred, the “polygamist next door” leader of a cult that was far more mainstream and whose daughter Dorothy has written a couple of good memoirs. One of Ervil’s wives, who served as a hit-person for him and shot Allred, also wrote a memoir- she was acquitted of Allred’s death but then came clean in her memoir after leaving the cult and was promptly hit with a bazillion dollar judgment in a civil suit.
Anyway, point: Green’s based on some real people who are even weirder than he is. (And the Kingston’s are even weirder than the LeBarons and a whole lot richer.)
Nikki has no more reason to keep Alby’s seceret anymore, does she? She doesn’t accept him as a prophet like she did her father when he was alive. Will she even want to blackmail him? What can he do for her now? And most importantly not only did Alby seal her mother to her ex-husband he was about to seal CaraLynn to some old pervert (just like Papa did to her). Nikki’s going to be out for blood. Best case scenario for Alby; all she does is force him to announce he’s had a “divine revelation” that CaraLynn is to go live with Nikki instead of being sealed and send JJ back to his other wives & family in Kansas. Worst scenario; she out’s him and the other men on the compound lynch him.
Of course Alby’s not the only one in the closet. 
Bill needs to stay inside until after the election and Alby’s one of the many people with an axe to grind. So Bill’s knowlege of Alby’s homosexuality is pretty useless. Could Alby call Nikki’s bluff and demand CaraLynn back in exchange for not outing Bill? Would Bill really be willing to risk that just so he can get elected? There’s not a chance in Hell that Barb or Margene would go along with that and Nikki’s willing to commit murder to avoid that fate for her daughter. I really hope that everthing finally blows up in Bill’s face by the season finale and his entire family (including Ted & Cindy) are exposed.
Such a pity the compound is so misogynistic, because Nicky would be the greatest Prophet of them all. There are Deborah and Miriam from the OT to give precedent to women with high authority, and she’d make her dad and Alby look like two tiny town storefront Jim and Tammy Faye wannabes in cunning and “brook no opposition” management style.
ETA:
Does anybody know if Harry Dean Stanton has health problems? The reason I ask is that in all of his post-mortem appearances, even on the Christmas video, he’s always seated or lying down. His voice seems unimpaired, so probably not a paralytic stroke, but I was wondering if perhaps there’s something else that has him particularly frail (other than being in his 80s of course).
I saw Alby’s “love” as more like a schoolboy’s first crush/“love.” His passion, his excitement, his affection seemed more about being caught up in having a first boyfriend than actual true love (and didn’t seem particularly reciprocated beyond the sex). He had the giddy enthusiasm of a high schooler…wonder if he wrote the guy’s name all over his folder.
I was really touched with the doomed lover’s struggle. I went to a conservative private Christian university, and a lot of what he reported going through and a lot of what he was told were painfully and sadly familiar. A very talented soloist in my school’s nationally acclaimed choir was reportedly gay, and you’d think the guy sold meth on the side by the scandal and scorn that befell him. He quit the choir, I think because the director didn’t want Teh Ghey in his group and pressured him. (Dude…it’s a CHOIR. I can think of at least a half dozen more boys in the group that would shock me if I found out they were straight.)
Flamboyant bird dealer was lamenting about being pushed–he agreed to go with them, but was all “Don’t push me, DON’T PUSH ME!” when they were, uh, pushing him. Aren’t you impressed with my Spanish translating? :rolleyes: Hey, I was just happy to understand him. For some reason, his accent was easy for me to follow. Most of the time, native Spanish speakers’ accents blur together, but I followed him pretty easily.
I really hope this series is going to wind up turning against Bill–making the protaganist an antagonist. He’s really becoming a self-absorbed asshole. Having affairs (that’s what I see it as, rather than simply “premarital sex”) and then saying it was some sort of direction of God…oh bullshit. You’re horny. And, you’re an asshole.
Good point. This was probally the first time Alby’s had anything approaching a relationship with another man. All of his sex partners up till know have probally been random guys he met in restrooms and parks for a quikie.
Just saw it. I kind of felt like Nikki’s “slutwear” was out of character. I get her wanting to renounce her family and the horrible things they’ve done…but I still don’t think she’d suddenly start dressing like that. My theory is it’s Chloe Sevigny getting tired of the prairie ware.
Is Heavenly Father just Bill’s word for his dick?
She was pissed and wanted to humiliate her mother in as much as possible. She’s not going to start dressing like that on a regular basis (well, unless she does more spying). And what she wore wasn’t much worse then how she dressed CaraLynn in DC in her misguided attempt to make her fit in.
I didn’t think it was that bad by our standards, but considering that shorts and a sleeveless blouse=naked in their world, Nicki’s wear was pretty scandalous for the compound folk. It just seemed like if she was really worried that something was going to happen to her daughter that she wouldn’t stop and try to find slutty clothes and do the side ponytail and the makeup. I don’t even think that Nicki’s take on “slutty” would be that–that read to me way more like Chloe’s take on it. All the things she was wearing are the things that are fairly in now–I would expect Nicki to look way less fashion forward at it.
I think Nikki is about half past give a shit over what scandalizes the compound folk, or is even going for shocking and horrifying them. She doesn’t recognize her father or brother as Prophet, is horrified and enraged and bitter at having been put in the Joy Book and sold off to that creep JJ, and is further horrified and enraged by her brother then turning around and selling their own mother to that creep JJ and sealing them in the same place she was sealed to him. She’s realized that their standards for behavior are horseshit, and doesn’t feel the driving need to conform to them any more.
She’s finally growing up and starting to be herself, and part of that is figuring out who the hell that is. Going back to who she felt like and wanted to be when she stopped growing emotionally is as good a place to start as any. And thus the outfit that, while fairly in right now, was totally in 20 years ago when she was sealed to JJ. As I said earlier, I believe someone wore that exact outfit to my middle school graduation in 1990.
But twenty years ago, Nicki was on the compound. She wouldn’t be all that aware of what’s “in.” I doubt she’s all that aware of what’s in now. I mean, I’ve seen a similar outfit/styling on Crystal Renn in a recent fashion shoot. I just can’t imagine her knowing about it.
What, you think she never, ever left the compound? That they didn’t own a television or ever get books, magazines, or newspapers? That doesn’t fit with what we’ve seen of the compound folks so far.
I think they’d have a general idea of it, but this whole outfit really screamed more Chloe Sevigny than Nicki Grant to me. It just seemed way too specific.
Anyway…my take on the whole premarital sex thing is that for them it’s huge. Look at how mean they were to Sarah (and Ben? I think?) over it. But mainly Sarah. I remember when Barb found the birth control pills that were Nicki’s and thought they were Sarah’s. The weird thing is in my family, getting married before I was even in college would have been a, “Why the fuck are you throwing your life away?!” moment but birth control pills were not a big thing.
I mean, to me, if he’s having sex with women without the “sanctity” of marriage, this whole Heavenly Father thing is a sham. He’s no different than a horny guy who gets to say “Heavenly Father decrees it” when he wants sex. Margene knew nothing about their religion or anything when she married into the family–all he seemed to get out of her was hot sex. It feels like such a sham to me.
An irrelevant comment but one I’ll make anyway: I first read the expression “half past give a shit” in Stephen King’s DOLORES CLAIBORNE and loved it and keep meaning to use it conversationally but never remember.
Here’s something I don’t understand that perhaps somebody can clarify: if Nicky was married to JJ when she was about 15 or so, then why was it a revelation that she was in the Joy Book? How could she not have known it since it was for choosing brides, or was she mad at learning she was put back into it after leaving JJ and her daughter?
On a similar “odd priorities” thing, I thought it was weird that of all the bad things they know Nicky has done- $60,000 in credit card debts, working as a mole for her father on several occasions, having mixed loyalties twixt her father and Bill, near pathological lying about her actions, etc.- it was the birth control pills that made Bill and Barb flip and want to divorce her.
He would probably claimed he was being tested by God and failed…
I think the Bill’s whole “Church of whatever I want” is a sham, although he’s convinced himself that he’s sincere about it.
The scene with Barb and Ana was my favorite of the episode, it’s like Ana wasn’t really picking up on the distinction between having sex with Bill before “marriage” and after…since the “marriage” probably meant as much to her as it does legally…just some woo-woo Bill made up. And I think Ana bringing up a lawyer was a way to reinforce that legally Bill is the father of her child and absolutely nothing more and the wives are nothing to her child.
That’s one thing I love about the show, they suck you into almost believing that their way of life is normal, then they bring in an outside viewpoint to reflect on how screwed up they really are.
And I don’t see Margene sticking around long, she is now capable of being financially independent and will soon be at the point where she is putting more into the relationship than she is getting out of it…and she’s a babe lately and will soon realize that she deserves a man she doesn’t have to share.
I just hope that ‘man’ isn’t Ben. Any kids she had with him would be the nephews or nieces of their half-brothers and half-sister (though I’m guessing on Juniper Creek this would be answered with “And?”).
I think her statement that she can pay him back his investment anytime he wants it and her asking him to really reconsider going public is an initial notice she’s thinking of cashing in her chips and going stag. One of my favorite scenes was when she made the other wives admit they’re nervous but didn’t end there- she made them “say why you’re nervous” which made the chinks in their armor really show.