Bigger bunch of feckless wankers: the Valar or the Jedi Council?

I’m getting really lazy.

The Valar did a perfectly good job protecting their Undying Lands; as far as they were concerned, Middle Earth was someone else’s problem. The Jedi have no such excuse.

The Jedi were stupid in so many ways its a wonder they didn’t wipe themselves out. Anakin had a skull and crossbones on his shirt and vultures on his shoulders and a biohazard warning sign and a black cloud floating over him in Force terms, and they still made him a Jedi. Then later, it’s “Oh, look, here’s a clone army somebody made but we’re not exactly sure who or why, but hey, we need 'em so we’ll use 'em, surely there will be no unpleasant consequences from that!”

You make a compelling case, Evil Captor. And Alessan as well. I’m not real comfortable giving the Valar a complete pass; after all, they were demi-gods, and even though they had an excuse, it’s still just that: an excuse. But one must still acknowledge that they successfully completed what they saw as their task, and it’s possible to extrapolate that had they seen fit to protect the rest of creation against Melkor and Sauron, they could have managed it.

Manwe may have been a dickless prick, but the Jedi were proactively stupid.

Manwe was following the will of Iluvatar. It’s hard to argue there were blunders when tarting from this premise; it was Iluvatar’s intention that Melkor survive unchained for a time. However, it’s also hard to see how giving Morgoth the opportunity to steal the Silmarils could possibly be anything but a blunder. Nonetheless, the Undying Lands were ultimately kept safe, and the Valar interceded when it was truly necessary. Beleriand was ultimately lost utterly, but not all of Middle-Earth, and Morgoth was captured until the End.

The Jedi were just really, really fucking stupid, and thy idiots lost everything. Well, not quite: two ignoramuses who should have known better than to let things get as bad as they did survived. On the whole, the Jedi were colossal fuckups.

The level of STOOPID from the Jedis is astounding. Yoda, the great Jedi master is never, ever right on even one single point in the entire series.

The bit about “Once you turn down the dark path, there can be no turning back”? Well, except that time that Luke got daddy to turn back.

The bit about “If you go save your friends, you’re all doomed”? Except that by saving his friends, Luke saved the day.

The whole “Let go of your anger. Angry a jedi is not” is A) stoopid wrong: righteous anger is the fucking best way to deal with injustice–think MLK would have marched if he wasn’t pissed? Hell, the North’s involvement in the civil war was largely about people being pissed off. Plus, the single best moment in any of the 6 films is where Luke (royally pissed, but controlling it–that’s the key that the little green turd never figured out–it’s not anger that’s bad, it’s uncontrolled anger) throws down his lightsaber and says “No. I’m a Jedi like my father before me.” Single most powerful moment in all 6 movies. And Luke is pissed

The stupid “Fear->Anger->Hate->Destruction of the Jedi” prophecy that Yoda spews. So his solution? “Ok, the kid’s mother is, for our purposes, dead. The kid is alone, scared, pissed and confused. And since he’s scared, let’s throw him out on the streets in a city that makes Times Square circa 1968 look like Disneyland. I’m sure that becoming a boy-toy for some interstellar child-perv group or scrounging in dumpsters for food will be a good way to make sure he never becomes a threat. If you feel anger even once, you’re tainted forever.”

Etc.

Luke, Han, Chewie and Leia are the only non-feckless wankers in all 6 movies.

The Valar weren’t terribly effective, from a purely “Why aren’t the gods taking care of us?!” perspective. But it’s not like they were autonomous…they had a boss. And that boss had a rule about letting the earthly…er, Arda-ly…beings work their own fates out. They can be nudged, but not shoved. And some of the Valar even edged their way around those strictures, really (Ulmo was pretty much a rogue Vala all the way through the First Age when it came to non-interference).

The Jedi Council, on the other hand, was a calcified, necrotic, paralyzed, elderly pile of fossilized dinosaur poop by the time of the first prequel. They had good intentions (as they had to have in order not to end up Dark Side adepts) but their policies and procedures were designed for an era that was long dead.

:eek::mad:

ARTOO!

Ar not! :smiley:

This is my biggest gripe with the prequels. It’s not that they where terrible, which they certainly were, but there was potentially a good story buried in that mess.

The Jedi where ignorant and morally bankrupt morons and the republic was stagnant and decadent. Imagine instead of Count Doodoo and General Wheezesius, Anakin would have been the leader of the Separatists. Anakin, disillusioned by the Jedis and manipulated by Palpatine, would have slowly gone over to the dark side by making more and more crueller decisions as the war went on. Th final step to the dark side would be the execution of his wife, who he regarded as a traitor to his cause.

The prequels would have been much better with some moral grey areas. The Separatist cause should have been portrayed more sympathetically. Seems to me they had legitimate grievances with the republic. But no. The bad guys where bad and the good stupid. Palpatine was the only one who had any brains in the prequels.

:smiley:

Shit, even then you can’t point to anything Palpatine does that’s particularly intelligent. He seems able to recruit apprentices pretty easily, but what else does he do that’s smart? As the whore-killing film reviewer points out, much of Palpatine’s “plan” in Episodes I and II is self-defeating, and he ends up winning solely due to the appalling ineptitude of basically everyone else.

Among the prequels’ many, many, many problems, the stupidity of the Jedi Council is a huge one. It’s hard to say they ruined the movies because I’m not sure the movies would make any sense is you just changed a few things about the Council, but the Council just made no sense at all. You’ve got a bunch of Jedi sitting in a circle. They make grave pronouncements like “This boy is dangerous” and “Maybe he’ll restore balance to the Force” but never do anything logical. The boy’s dangerous, but, shit, let’s train him anyway! We need to find out who Darth Maul is… nah, let’s not put a lot of effort into that. And there’s Palpatine, right there, and they never notice he’s crawling with Force power.

I cannot imagine how you could more MORE feckless than the Jedi Council.

How about CTU without Jack Bauer?

Eh the “good” guys are stupid and self centered seems to be a common thing. I nominate the 31st century Federation as far worse then either of those groups, I mean their whole thing is they watch over the timeline, except Vulcan getting destroyed by some incursion from the future, they just leave that be.

I don’t get this. He rose through Republic politics pretty adroitly, arranging for the creation of a clone army with a sleeper command embedded so that it would do his evil bidding when the moment was right. He fooled the Jedi Council for years. On his way to the Supreme Chancellorship, he secretly encouraged a civil war that would mean more and more power would be placed in his hands by a panicky Senate. He selected and used two powerful apprentices as he saw fit. Other than his wounding and malformation when the Jedi came to arrest him, his plans worked out just right.

I’m fairly sure J.J. Abrams was wise enough never to inflict an episode of Voyager or Enterprise upon himself.

Yes, I know, but given what we’re told by the prequels, Palpatine did all this in large part because the Jedi Council was dumber than a box of rocks. Palpatine outwitted them but it appears to be no harder a job than outwitting Harry and Lloyd from “Dumb and Dumber.”

I’m not saying Palpatine was ultimately unsuccessful, I’m saying it’s not a feat that appears to be particularly impressive given the absolute idiocy of everyone opposing him. It’s like the old gag about how I taught my dog to play chess, and you say that’s amazing, and I say “Yeah, but he’s only beaten me twice in eleven games.” Am I really that smart for being 9-for-11 against a poodle?

“So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.”

The Jedi seemed to be self deluded. They were too onesided, in regards to their philosophy and use of the force (toward the “good”, or “light” side). They denied themselves romantic entanglements, thinking it clouds judgement, for example. Nothing good comes from love? I don’t buy that.

They misinterpet “prophesy” and precognitive visions according to their own dogma. Nuthin really surprising, happens to the best of them. But the end of Episode 6, Anakin gets to join the spiritual elite (the ghosts of Yoda and Kenobi) based on what? Throwing his Sith master down a bottomless pit? Didn’t he offer to do that when he was trying to recruit Luke as his apprentice? What’s the diff? His motives? Please. The failure of the Jedi council directly contributed to the success of a Sith to become Emporer, and the (presumed) death of billions.

May their ghosts be banished/chained to Endor forever.