Erm, I don’t know what is more disturbing; the bill itself, or the fact that people may be brainwashed into passing it in their “f*ck the damn hippies” gung-ho fanatacism.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14942-2003Apr2.html
I’m sorry, but the definition of “terrorist” is becoming far too loose.
Is it as broad as Richard Perle’s?
Since when did Rush Limbaugh get a seat on the Supreme Court?
Screw these moronic jerks.
I predict this will end up in Great Debates or The Pit.
I think this bill is unabashedly stupid and is a blatant travesty. It flies in the face of 200+ years of Constitutional jurisprudence and should be stricken with the full force of a judicial gavel.
It probably won’t be the full force of a judicial gavel, but the silent death of failing to make it out of committee.
I don’t think this bill is going to make it out of committee either.
That doesn’t mean street-blocking isn’t a problem.
Working in a city (Chicago) that has had a street shutdown I have to say that such protests DO have a chilling effect on the ordinary stiffs. I was going to work with a spare change of clothes and toothbrush in my bag because I didn’t know if I’d be able to make it home if something got started.
See, the demonstrators were just yelling and waving signs in accordance with free speech - that was to start. But when they didn’t get their way, when hordes of people didn’t have spontaneous revelation of the rightness of their views, they had a hissy-fit.
So they decided to move from the exercise of free speech to shutting down the roads.
OK, let’s get this clear - blocking roads and traffic for hours on end is NOT speech! Lake Shore Drive was shut down for 5 or 6 hours. That’s people in their cars for 5 or 6 hours unable to leave the area. If you’re a parent with kids – what do you tell the little tykes in the back seat who are getting tired and hungry and have to go peeeeeeeeeeee! and who might be getting scared at all the angry, shouting people running around? If you’re alone in the car in the middle of a mob… for hours on end… how do you think you’d view this? An exercise in free speech or imprisonment?
Let’s remember the folks in the cars were NOT part of the demonstration. They were mostly folks who just got off work and wanted to go home. At the very least you’re looking at unlawful restraint and I’m surprised the Oregonians aren’t using that “tool”.
The demonstrations are escalating from free speech and peaceful actions to civil disobedience. I wish these idiots would actually READ Thoreau’s essay on “Civil Disobedience”, which points out that if you break the law during your civil disobedience you will have to endure the price of law-breaking. By the way - he wrote it while he was sitting in jail.
If “peaceful” disruptions of daily life don’t get these protesters what they want there’s a hard core of them that might well bump it up to actual riots and violence.
I’ve run into too many 20-somethings who romanticize the protests of the 1960’s. Well, those kids need to learn some history. People were maimed and killed during some of those “peaceful” demonstrations. In 1968 Mayor Daley of Chicago (not the current Mayor Daley - his father) ordered the police to “shoot to kill” the protesters outside the Democratic National Convention. I have no doubt the current Mayor Daley is capable of issuing the same order.
Truly, we live in interesting times.
Could such protestors be lawfully considered rebels who have seised land (the street) and can be removed by military force?
Broomstick: I think there are plenty of people in Baghdad right now who wish they had the troubles you do.
So whatever happened to like giving them tickets for jaywalking or whatever?
Broomstick, I agree fully. But 25 years is too damned long. If the police want to hand out tickets for jaywalking and creating a public disturbance, fine. As long as the penalties for those crimes don’t reach cruel and unusual punishment, I’m okay with it. 25 years for anything less than absolutely major theft or causing grievious bodily harm is too long.
Twenty-five years may be too long, but I think significant punishment is still warranted. I think public offenses of this type should be quantified not only in terms of the act itself, but also in terms of the number of victims. And there are a LOT of victims here.
Listen, civil disobedience does not necessarily equal civic disruption. Ghandi was civilly disobedient by making salt, which was restricted by law to the British overlords. He and his people marched out to the salt flats and made salt. They didn’t form a human chain across the busiest street in Mumbai at rush hour. Well maybe later on they did that–I really don’t know. But my point is that civil disobedience does not necessarily equal pissing off as many people as you can.
This is basically the result of an idiot mayor and police chief in Portland who have no clue about how to handle protests. After the initial protest, where some streets and freeways were blocked off and on for six hours, some businesses damaged, and the police attacked a couple of times, our brilliant mayor said she was “pleased” with the way the protest progressed. There were thousands of residents , believe me, who were somewhat less than pleased.
Handing out tickets to protesters isn’t going to be an effective way to get people off the streets, but it’s also absurd to send someone to jail for twenty five years for being involved in a street demonstration.
The police here are afraid to be even the slightest bit aggressive for fear of starting a riot. Protesters have made it clear that they are willing to go way beyond just breaking a couple of windows if they are restrained from doing whatever they want.
The violent elements in the crowd need to be targeted, arrested, and jailed. The same goes for those leading others to block streets and disrupt businesses. Those who wish to protest peacefully, or at least in a manner that doesn’t disrupt the city, should be allowed to do so.
Yes, gex gex, those who live in Baghdad certainly have problems that dwarf mine — but that doesn’t make my problems go away.
I do agree with Derleth that 25 years is “too damned long”. We need to look for a happy medium (if possible).
An additional problem was faced by the police in Chicago in that they knew a significant number of people in the Lake Shore Drive incident weren’t prostesters but people who had been swept up with the mob as they left work or a store or restaurant, but there was no way for the police to distinguish between the two groups (except where protestors were insisting on being recognized as protestors).
There were about 500-700 arrests that night, and arrest was used largely as a means to clear the streets and restore order. MOST of those arrested were released the next day, and many were not charged with anything. Fair? No. The whole damn thing was unfair to a lot of people. On the other hand, with this sort of thing going on I had resolved that if I, personally, wound up trapped in a mob like that I’d be the most cooperative arrestee ever seen and hope to just go home the next day without any charges, or let a lawyer sort it out later. In Chicago the demonstration was disruptive, but not overtly violent.
Out west, however, people WERE throwing things, breaking things, and from the looks of it some of them were spoiling for a fight. That’s a slightly different situation.
Still think 25 years for blocking a street is excessive - but if it escalated to a situation where cars were overturned and set on fire, maybe not. Except we already have laws to deal with that sort of mayhem and I just don’t see where passing another will change anything.
Also, can anyone see a protester actually being given 25 years in prison for blocking the street?
Nah, me neither. Its hard to enforce laws as ludicrous as this.
I believe that one of the instigators behind this AssHat piece of legislation is a local AssHat Portland radio DEE-JAY, who fashions himself as the next Howard Stern.
This 25 years stuff is laughable and from what I’ve heard, the bill will die in committee.
As far as the demonstrations pissing people off, well sorry, but that is a big part of the whole reason for demonstrating, so that your voice can be heard to the point of annoying other people.
The Klu Klux Klan sure as hell pisses me off and listening to what they have to say annoys me, but I will fight for their right to free speech as hard as I can.
Also, the fault doesn’t lie entirely with the demonstrators, a good bit of it lies with the police, and a small part with those not involved in the demonstration, but who were in the area anyway.
The police are at fault for not having enough officers/people on hand to see that the demonstrators didn;t get very far out of hand.
As the people who just happened to be there, they had to know about the demonstration and could have made alternate plans or chosen another route to wherever they were going.
It’s been in both for a few days now.
You presume a mob knows where it’s going ahead of time.
Yes, we knew there was a protest scheduled for the Federal Plaza (that’s the one with the Picasso in it). JUST the Federal Plaza - they had even gotten a permit for it, all nice and legal.
Then just before 5 o’clock they spontaneously (apparently) decided to march to Lake Shore Drive, up part of Michigan Avenue. About 8 blocks to the Drive on their route, past office buildings just letting out for the evening rush. They they proceeded to sweep another mile further north.
In other words - folks two miles away from the where the protest was supposed to be wound up in the mess. So no, NO ONE knew they were going to wind up there, there was no advance warning, and no way to avoid it unless you had a friend call you on a cellphone or something.
Certainly, the several dozen cars stuck on the Drive for 5-6 hours didn’t expect pedestrians to shut down the thoroughfare - it’s like having hikers show up on the freeway. Pedestrians are not permitted on the Drive.