[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Who’s the white Satchmo
[/QUOTE] Bix Beiderbecke. There’s no doubt in my mind that, if he hadn’t drank himself to death in his mid-20s, Bix would have been just as famous and influential as Louis Armstrong. Louis, himself, had a very high regard for his talents.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
'Trane or Bird?
[/QUOTE]
Much more difficult to find parallels. Stan Getz, maybe, or Paul Desmond. Neither one were responsible for musical revolutions like Coltrane or Parker but still made very significant contributions to jazz.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Hendrix?
[/QUOTE]
Stevie Ray Vaughan. Phenomenally talented blues-rock guitarist. Heavily influenced by Hendrix, no doubt, but was well on his way to defining and evolving his own sound with every new release until his own untimely death.
The one thing my African-North-American students have consistently demonstrated a superior natural gift in, music-wise, was rhythm (understanding it, feeling it, and maintaining it, very young). Musical ability, in the end, seems to be spread evenly across the board.
As far as “better as music” goes, I’d say it’s entirely dependent on the style, the era, the type, the period. You won’t find a black baroque composer. White rap artists suck ass, for the most part. Most of the best tangos are composed by Spaniards. Chopin was the master of the Polonaise. I mean, cultural and ethnic background plays a part in, you know, cultural tone. Music is, after all, related to all that…
If y’all are gonna use a huge-ass brush and say “Blacks are better at music”, you might as well take the whole paint can and throw it at the wall.
Oh, come on. We’re searching through all History to find good white musicians and you name Rachmaninoff? The guy is the fucking Yngwie Malmsteen of the piano.
I feel like I lost some brain cells reading this thread. Am I the only one? The sad thing is that Dio stupid comment has opened the floodgates of even more stupidity.
[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
Seriously? The Red Hot Chili Peppers are even by objective standards one of the most unique rock bands ever to emerge and enjoy mainstream success. Their combination of eclectic musical and vocal styles, as well as their wide range of different sounds throughout their notably long career (25 years and still going!) puts them far above the level of just another pop-rock band.
[/QUOTE]
[hijack]I loved the first few albums but after Frusciante left for the first time they really became much more commercial.
I love their older CDs but the later ones really haven’t impressed me.
I might have to listen to their latest to see if I like it.
And by the way : I vehemently hate their leadsinger/through-the-music-talker.
What an incredible windbag. [/hijack]
[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
I wondering why Diogenes the Cynic isn’t getting the same pile-on treatment that others get for saying much less.
Are the usual suspects intimidated by him or something?
[/QUOTE]
Wow, seriously?
One person agrees with him (that I can see at leat) in three pages of pile-on, but you don’t think it’s enough?
… wait for it… wait for it… :rolleyes:
… Bingo! My first SMDB rolleyes! Yay me!
But just to stay on topic here, I lurk mostly. Dio, as many times as I know you have heard me silently agreeing with you, I gotta say I agree with 2 & 1/2 this time, and I know he’s heard me silently shaking my head to so many things he’s posted. Thinking of one particular race as inherently better at a given something regardless of the race’s color and regardless of the viewholder’s race is pretty much by the book racism.
Now if you all will excuse me, I need to go run over some of my tax return numbers with my Jew and Asian buddies. I think the gov’t might owe me a few more $'s…
[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
I wondering why Diogenes the Cynic isn’t getting the same pile-on treatment that others get for saying much less.
Are the usual suspects intimidated by him or something?
[/QUOTE]
Maybe some folks just don’t spasmatically knee-jerk whenever somebody simply acknowledges that races in America have different cultures, and being different, his or her opinion is that they are not all exactly as good at everything. Right or wrong, it’s not enough for me to get recreationally outraged about it.
I know when race is mentioned we’re traditionally supposed make comments about paintbrushes and their width, but maybe a little perspective in order.
[QUOTE=Revtim]
Maybe some folks just don’t spasmatically knee-jerk whenever somebody simply acknowledges that races in America have different cultures…
[/QUOTE]
Except that if you go back and read the original comment, it came about in the context of biology and neuroscience:
[QUOTE=Revtim]
Maybe some folks just don’t spasmatically knee-jerk whenever somebody simply acknowledges that races in America have different cultures, and being different, his or her opinion is that they are not all exactly as good at everything. Right or wrong, it’s not enough for me to get recreationally outraged about it.
[/QUOTE]
Other folks long ago realized that in some matters, Diogenes is a complete and unrepentant fucking idiot, and have learned to mostly ignore the spectacular eruptions of idiocy that regularly flare up between periods of relative dormancy.
Could it be that like so many other areas of life, a black person (no, I am not typing out African American), have to be about 3 times better than a white person in order to even get noticed, much less a recording contract, airtime etc? That would seem to feed the impression that “black people” are inherently better at music than whites.
And (yes, I’m going there) there is the black culture: most black churches have a heavy emphasis on singing and music in worship, much more so than mainstream white churches. I’d say the ratio of hymns is about 2:1 (I made that up, but I don’t think I’m far off), so black people have more exposure to music. Couple that with the fact that until quite recently, instruments, lessons and studio time were beyond the financial reach of many black people, I think you are looking at the absolute cream of the crop, mixed with the determination to succeed professionally, and the lucky breaks that all successful musicians need to become known.
That’s a mighty mountain to climb for most, made harder by the disadvantages endemic in our country.
So, I don’t take Dio’s statement to be a sudden exposure of a closet racist; I take it as a broad statement that has little truth in life, but could have the appearance of truth at a glance. I don’t agree with him that “blacks are more musical or better at music” than whites overall, but I think he probably posted carelessly. And none of us have done that, no sir.
What if profound differences are found in the brain between different cultural groups? Not in the size or weight of the brain, but in the connections of the synapses and the proportion of specialized areas? And what if those findings show that some of the stereotypes are true? What then? (I have no idea if this is occurring, I am just throwing it out there). Time was when girls wanting dolls and boys guns was thought to be totally socialized. It is socialized, but there is a natural, inherent attraction there as well. What implications are there for us? To me, that’s the real issue–not some thoughtless statement.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
I don’t agree with him that “blacks are more musical or better at music” than whites overall, but I think he probably posted carelessly. And none of us have done that, no sir.
[/QUOTE]
He just fails to recognize it, or rectify it.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Except that if you go back and read the original comment, it came about in the context of biology and neuroscience:
[/QUOTE]
OK, now I’m curious. Which is it, Diogenes? Culture or biology?
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
It’s all IMO, I know, but does it really make me a racist? Jesus. It was an offhand comment. I’m glad I didn’t say anything about basketball.
[/QUOTE]
A while back when I was a newbie to the SDMB, a wise man named John Mace said to me that reading your posts will make more sense if I mentally place the words “I think” at the beginning of each one. It actually works.
If you had made any indication in your original post on this subject that it was “all IMO,” you might have avoided this whole mess.
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
A while back when I was a newbie to the SDMB, a wise man named John Mace said to me that reading your posts will make more sense if I mentally place the words “I think” at the beginning of each one. It actually works.
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps I wasn’t so wise, afterall, when he posts stuff like this:
That is just trolling, if you ask me. But what do I know-- it’s just my opinion. I’m not an expert troll spotter.
[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
I wondering why Diogenes the Cynic isn’t getting the same pile-on treatment that others get for saying much less.
Are the usual suspects intimidated by him or something?
[/QUOTE]
This is the most racist bullshit I’ve seen for a while, and I’m not going to touch this argument. I’ll just take note of certain players that have gone way down in my respect for them.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Ever heard south African Jive? It sounds like 50’s doo wop.
I imagine the reason Black American music doesn’t sound like African traditional music is that Black music in America has evolved considerably far away from those roots and I don’t think many Americans actually listen to African traditional music.
Am I? Where in Africa is there a long tradition of storytelling as written literature? Egypt maybe? where else?
(By the way, I lived in Africa for two years, so I don’t need a lecture about how big it is)
A great, underappreciated singer. Cheesy but Great. His work with Sabbath was awesome. I used to love the Heaven and Hell album. I should see if I can find that on CD somewhere.
[/QUOTE]
I think Mali, Ghana are good examples (didn’t they have plenty of really old mosques in Djenné, and Timbuktu?).
I am pretty sure Aksum, and Kush had extensive written histories that pre-date anything Europe has done.
Their musical capabilities are still in question though.
