Black on white crime!

Phaedrus, please read the following carefully.
-Tom wrote “well over 90% of the people in the South actively supported the institution of slavery, (going to war to protect it)”. Are you claiming that they didn’t support slavery?
The second sentence of the Declaration of Causes which Impels the State of Georgia to Seceed from the Federal Union begins “For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our
non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African
slavery.”
Andrew Johnson said "‘You shall come into our confederacy, or we will coerce you to the emancipation of your slaves.’ That is the language which is held toward us. " This is the senator from Tennessee describing the offer from the Confederacy.
Both of these are (IMO) evidence that the issue involved states rights but was primarily about SLAVERY.
-The Declaration of Independance starts out with “The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen United States of America”. This was 1776, well before the Civil war. The next year (still way before 1864), the Articles of Confederation were written. They start out with “The Stile of this Confederacy shall be “The United States of America””. Do you need more cites as to when “United States of America” was used?

Yeah, its the Federal Government that’s been holding the south back. If the Fed were out of the picture, they could get that “life-blood” back by reinstituting Jim Crow laws and segregation so they can get to work on “Hee Haw 2000”.

Just MY opinion.

mojo: MY people were there, were YOURS?

Phaedrus, we’ve been over the state rights issues on numerous occasions (some quite recently on GD).

The salient points against (and I’ve never seen anyone persuaded in either direction once they had made up their minds) are:

  • The South demonstrated on numerous occasions that they wanted a (relatively) strong central government when that government guaranteed their rights to have slaves and suddenly decided that that wasn’t what they really wanted when they felt that the central government would not support them. (Where was the great cry from the South for “states rights” when the Fugitive Slave Act overset laws in several Northern states?)

In the Articles of Confederation, the Confederacy usurped a number of “states rights” powers from the very beginning, negating their “states rights” complaints pretty effectively from my perspective.

Although tariff issues, the gold standard, internal taxation policies, and the opening of the West (among other issues) have often caused regional strife, only slavery made it to the point of causing an actual secession.

I do not claim that cultural differences and other political confrontations played no part in the rupture (and that would include states rights). The defining issue leading to the discussion, the confrontation, and the war was slavery.
The issue of “The United States” vs “These United States” is not quite as simple as some anti-federalist writers would have one believe. There are a great many references to both “The” and “These” both prior to and subsequent to the Civil War. There is no question that the Civil War (as the Depression/New Deal later) provided many opportunities for the Federal Government to consolidate and enhance its powers. It can be well argued that this centralization is a bad thing. It is simply not true that in 1859, this country was always identified as “These” and from 1866 on was always called “The.”


Tom~

Phaedrus, I have absolutely no idea what you mean.

I dunno Mojo, apperently you get some keen insight to the truth from being a desendent of someone, somewhere who saw something. But then, I have keen insight because I’m the reincarnation of a Southern tobacco plantation owner.

[[Tom: you are a brilliant historian, but in this thread I think you are wrong. You said the Southerns went to war because they supported slavery. You are wrong. They went to war over states rights!]] Phaedrus
Yeah, sure – the right of the States to maintain the institution of slavery. Of course, I’d expect that line from a demonstrated bigot such as yourself.
[[ It wasn’t until after the war between the states that the good ol’ U.S. of A. was even called that. ]]
Funny, in the Preamble to my copy of the constitution it reads: “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
[[My relatives are from South Carolina and I am sorry that the South didn’t win.]]
Of course, all decent people are glad that the southern traitors were defeated. I don’t hold it against everyone in South Carolina that you’re a racist, though.

Although my “Hee Haw 2000” joke was a pretty lame one, (sorry if I offended any southern dopers), I just found out that there’s a Dukes of Hazard game coming out for the Playstation in 2000. Since the original show ended in 1985, we’re talking 15 years later for a video game based on this series.

I blame the Federal gov’t for this.

Several days ago, I questioned the assumption that minorities are not generally prosecuted for “hate crimes.” I have not found any figures for sentences that have been increased becasue of racial motivation. I have not found any statistics at all for pure hate crimes such as ethnic intimidation. What I have found is a compilation of the hate crimes reported by race of victim and offender.

From HATE CRIME STATISTICS 1997, p. 8 (FBI, available as a .pdf at [http://www.fbi.gov/publish/hatecrime.htm)](http://www.fbi.gov/publish/hatecrime.htm))

This means of racially motivated crimes reported, 15% were black on white, and 50% were white on black. Of 3982 racially motivated crimes where the offender’s race was known, 858 or 21% were committed by blacks. (my calculations from the table on p. 15.)

I can't tell you how well reported crimes correlate with prosecutions -- reasonably well, I'd guess. The numbers look altogether too low to me, but they may accuratly reflect a police bias against reporting *any* crime as a hate crime. My tenetative conclusion is that the police show no particular hesitation to attribute hate crimes to blacks.

I was going to quote some other posters in regards to slavery and reply directly to them, but to hell with it. All of this quoting and counter-quoting gets out of hand pretty quickly.

A few folks here have opined that slavery in the New World was somehow more inhumane than slavery in the rest of the world. I am highly skeptical of this.

Most of the African slaves who died during the process of being captured and transported to the Americas perished en route to the coast long before they ever saw a white man. The African tribes sold each other into slavery quite gladly, considering it a good way to get rid of enemies and make a profit at the same time. While there were sometimes revolts in the slave ships, a much bigger problem was keeping the slaves from killing each other when they came from different tribes, as was often the case.

The Arabs took even more slaves out of sub-Sahara Africa than did the Europeans and worked them under conditions so harsh that virtually none of them succeeded in leaving descendents. In fact, the Europeans learned everything they knew about the African slave trade from the Arabs. The Arabs also took slaves out of Europe and Asia. The name of the Hindu Kush mountain range means “Hindu Death” in honor of the fact that many of the Hindu slaves being transported to the Mideast from India died during this part of the journey - their captors were quite proud of the fact. European seamen of the eighteenth and early nineteenth century lived in dread of being taken into slavery by Arab pirates because the horrors of slavery in North Africa were well known to them. Before anyone accuses me of Arab baiting, I hasten to add this was all probably due to accidents of history and geography, and not due to some special quality of cruelty and avarice in the Arabs.

Someone said slaves in Rome were generally well-treated. Then why were there slave uprisings such as that of Spartacus? A Roman senator once proposed that slaves be required to wear tunics of a certain color so they could be more easily identified. This was voted down when it was pointed out that the slaves would then become aware of just how numerous they were and might revolt.

Someone mentioned that the first black slaves were indentured servants. But most indentured servants where white, and their plight was no better than that of slaves. Extra years of servitude could be added to their terms for even trivial offenses. Beatings were common, female servants were often raped, and masters often got away with killing indentured servants with little or no punishment. Because the term of service was limited, masters had little reason to provide adequate food, clothing or shelter,and a strong incentive to get as much work out of their servants as they could before the term of servitude was up. Runaways were common, and the penalties for running away quite harsh. Many died before their term of service expired. If they survived, they were often set loose with little more than the clothes on their backs, and were shoved off into the forest to scratch out a living as best as they could from the poorest farmland. Often their settlements served as buffers between hostile Indian tribes and the “better” white people. Do you know where the term “kidnapping” comes from? It comes from the term “kid nabbing,” a charming custom practiced in the colonial period in which the providers of indentured servants would hire thugs to go into poor neighborhoods of British cities and literally grab children off the street to be sold as indentured servants.

To be blunt, I doubt that black slaves in the southeastern United States suffered more than other slaves (legally recognized as such or not) in the rest of the world. It could even plausibly argued that slaves on southern plantations had it better than so-called “free” white workers in northern factories and mills. At least a slave had some assurance of food, clothing and shelter whid the “free” worker did not. The southern slave often had better food, more leisure time and his family was less likely to be broken up. And there is something disgusting hypocritical about the abolitionists who wept bitter tears over their black brothers in bondage on southern plantations while turning a blind eye towards their white sisters dying of hunger and exhaustion in northern factories.

Better wind this up before I start ranting even more than I already have. To sum it all up, I don’t buy the idea that the sufferings of blacks in the United States are so unique and unusual that they have some sort of special claim on the rest of us.

Well, except that that is not the point. The point is that they were the one group brought to this country against their will for two hundred years, who were then held to be an underclass by law for an additional 100 years–and a large body of evidence shows that many (not all) are still treated as an underclass by culture even today.

You may not enjoy indicating quotes, but quotes do have the advantage of showing that you may have actually read the text against which you complain.

For example,

is an obvious *mis-*reading of the text to which you allude. The statement was that slavery ran the gamut of extreme horror (Aztec sacrifice) to “less malign” as exemplified by the Roman “service industry.” During Republican and Imperial Rome, scribes, clerks, and copyists (who were responsible for all “publishing”), accountants, business managers, and many who practiced medicine were slaves, but were treated rather well. No statement was made that Roman slavery was a good thing, only that a single specific class of Roman slaves were an example of slavery being “less malign” than other examples.

No claim was made that slavery in the Southern United States was specifically the most cruel form. Your points regarding indentured servants are basically correct. The specific difference is that however bad the condition of an indentured servant, there was an end to that service. In 1660, Virginia passed the first law that simply said if one was imported from Africa, there was never an end to the service. They did this because they recognized the economic value of denying rights to a highly visible group. While “most” indentured servants were white, the numbers in the South ran very close to a 50-50 split until the law was changed to enslave blacks–then indentured servitude began falling off in the South.

Slavery had not been legal in England for centuries. The Virginia act was the first step backward in law for English-speaking peoples in regards to slavery. This is not a case of an earlier culture not measuring up to twentieth century standards; this is a flagrant step away from human rights.

Slavery of blacks by blacks in Africa was more nearly the sort of slavery practiced in Greece and Rome (bad as it was) whereby it was quite possible to “earn” one’s freedom and actually become a member of society. I do not claim that slaves held in sub-Sahara Africa were treated with respect. The difference is that they could be treated with respect. When white masters began behaving in the same way in the U.S., laws were passed to impede that action.

I have never claimed that Slavery in the U.S. was absolutely worse than anywhere else, your description of Arab slavery is obviously worse. (I have not seen figures showing that the Arabs transported more people across the Sahara than were brought to the Americas and I would be interested in a reference.) It remains, however, that the use of slaves in this country created a market whereby more slaves were sought and captured. There is no evidence of bidding wars between European and Arabic buyers–only an increase in the capture of slaves to supply new markets.

While your comparison of Northern mill workers to Southern slaves can, indeed, be argued, this quote

is simply not true. Whatever the odds of families in the North being broken apart as men left to find work (or abandoned their families in bad times) it was a standard practice in the South to sell members of families (with a denial of their right to marry as a fundamental aspect of that practice in some areas).

The only claim that blacks have on society is for an equal opportunity. As long as people deny everything that has led to the current inequalities and simply claimn that some (frequently unenforced) law has already made everyone equal, we will continue to have problems.


Tom~

Since you’re so fond of quotes, here’s one from you:

>>>While slavery occurred in many parts of the world prior to its institutionalization, here, it was generally a matter of tens or thousands of persons taken in war. The slavery practiced by Europeans created a market in which the slave trade reached the millions.<<<

As I’ve already mentioned, the slave trade as practiced by the Arabs involved millions of people (according to Thomas Sowell in a newspaper column), and went on longer than the Atlantic slave trade. In that respect, the Arabs rivaled or even surpassed the Europeans. The Atlantic slave trade was not unprecedented or unmatched.

The forced removal of Africans to other parts of the world began in the ninth century and continued legally until the nineteenth century, almost a thousand years. There were two major routes or waves, one over the Sahara conducted by the Arabs and the other over the Atlantic conducted by Europeans. Some twenty million Africans were taken, with some five million dying in transit. Africans taken on the trans-Sahara route or wave were sold in North Africa and the Mediterranean area generally, with more than ten million in all taken into slavery by non-European Muslims. This wave lasted from the nineth to the fifteenth century. Africans taken on the trans-Atlantic route or wave ended up, of course, in the Americas. This went on roughly from the fifteenth to nineteenth centuries, and about ten million Africans were taken into slavery by this route. Sources: James Walvin, "Slavery and the Slave Trade; and George F. Dow, “Slave Ships and Slaving”.

>>>It remains, however, that the use of slaves in this country created a market whereby more slaves were sought and captured.<<<

The vast majority of African slaves, 94%, went to South America and the Caribbean, not the U.S. Even if the U.S. had never imported a single slave, the market would still have been tremendous. (Of course, a huge wrongdoing by A doesn’t excuse a smaller wrongdoing by B.) Please don’t tell me, “I didn’t say that the U.S. was the only market.” You’ve certainly implied it here.

>>> … a large body of evidence shows that many (not all) are still treated as an underclass by culture even today.<<<

Which could also be said of many whites. Ever been to Appalachia? Ever hear the term “Okie?” Do you know what kind of reception the Okies got in California when they fled there from the Dust Bowl during the Depression? Ever wonder why people who would never use words like “nigger,” “spick,” or “kike” think nothing of using words like “hillbilly,” “redneck,” “white trash,” or “trailer trash”? Ever meet someone who’d laugh at a “redneck” joke but not a a “nigger” joke or a “Jew” joke? Take some time to find and read “The Redneck Manifesto: How Hillbillies, Hicks, and White Trash Became America’s Scapegoats” by Jim Goad. You might get some idea of why I’m so pissed off.

>>>The specific difference is that however bad the condition of an indentured servant, there was an end to that service.<<<

Sigh. As I’ve already pointed out, many of them never survived to the end of their term of service because of the inhumane conditions of servitude. In the Caribbean islands, the overwhelming majority of indentured servants died before their terms of service expired, primarily because their living conditions were Hell on earth. And often when they managed to live out their terms, their health was so shattered that they were left with little option except to beg in the streets, or they were shoved off to the least desirable land to shift for themselves as best as they could. What is more, most of them were brought to the New World in chains, having been sold into servitude for crimes such as stealing bread for their families or not having enough money to pay their debts. Before the Revolution, the colonies were dumping grounds for England’s undesirables, a job Australia took on when the Brits needed a new dumping ground after the Revolution. Blacks were not the only ones who came here in chains in large numbers, and indentured servitude was no more humane than slavery.

>>>Of course, this rather blithely ignores that well over 90% of the people in the South actively supported the institution of slavery, (going to war to protect it), even if they didn’t own slaves.<<<

So you got in a time machine, went back to the Old South and took a poll, did you? While you’re at the library looking for “The Redneck Manifesto”, find a copy of “What They Fought For: 1861-1865” by James T. McPherson, and get a clue.

An estimated 90% of Confederate troops were not slaveowners - the rich (i.e. slaveowners, who were probably no more than 1/15th of Southern society) often managed to wiggle out of military service altogether. Johnny Reb and Billy Yank alike complained, with more than a little justification, that it was “a rich man’s war and a poor man’s fight.” The average Confederate grunt most likely saw himself as defending his home from invaders. Consiering the devastation wreaked on the South both during and after the war, this view was well justified. While Johnny Reb probably took the doctrine of white supremacy more or less for granted, he wasn’t fighting primarily for the right to own slaves.

Sometimes I feel so sorry for Yankees. They have to have some moral rationalization for the massive destruction of both life and property they inflicted on the South, and the best they can do is to pretend that it was a noble crusade against slavery.

>>>Slavery of blacks by blacks in Africa was more nearly the sort of slavery practiced in Greece and Rome (bad as it was) whereby it was quite possible to “earn” one’s freedom and actually become a member of society. I do not claim that slaves held in sub-Sahara Africa were treated with respect. The difference is that they could be treated with respect. When white masters began behaving in the same way in the U.S., laws were passed to impede that action.<<<

The conditions a slave might have met in the South varied a great deal. It was often possible for a slave to earn enough money to buy his freedom. Throughout the entire period of slavery, there were free blacks in the South, some of whom owned slaves themselves. House servants were often treated with a great deal of respect and sometimes were virtually members of the family.

A quote from “The Peculiar Institution: Slavery in the Antebellum South” by Kenneth Stampp: “Visitors often registered surprise at the social intimacy that existed between masters and slaves in certain situations. A Northerner saw a group of Mississippi farmers encamped with their slaves near Natchez after hauling their cotton to market. Here they enjoyed a ‘cheek by jowl’ familiarity with perfect good will and a mutual contempt for the nicer distinctions of color.”

In “The Slave States of America,” James Buckingham, a noted English abolitionist, is quoted as saying in 1842: “This is only one among the many proofs I had witnessed of the fact, that the prejudice of color is not nearly so strong in the South as in the North. [In the South] it is not at all uncommon to see the black slaves of both sexes, shake hands with white people when they meet, and interchange friendly personal inquiries; but at the North I do not remember to have witnessed this once; and neither in Boston, New York or Philadelphia would white persons generally like to be seen shaking hands and talking familiarly with blacks in the streets.”

Another quote from you:

>>>While your comparison of Northern mill workers to Southern slaves can, indeed, be argued, this quote

quote:

The southern slave often had better food, more leisure time and his family was less likely to be broken up.

is simply not true. Whatever the odds of families in the North being broken apart as men left to find work (or abandoned their families in bad times) it was a standard practice in the South to sell members of families (with a denial of their right to marry as a fundamental aspect of that practice in some areas).<<<

Untold numbers of worki

Well, that’s good. So, your basic point is that since some people have incorrect views of history, it should be OK to keep blacks down, today? You went on at great length to point out how the poor, misrepresented South was really a wonderful caring community that has simply been vilified by Northerners.

Sorry. I have never claimed that evil exists only in the South. You are the one who has implied that blacks in the U.S. have no reason to call for justice simply because others have been treated unjustly.

Were more slaves imported to the Caribbean than to the U.S.? Of course. Was the trade spurred on by maritime concerns in the U.S. North? Of course. The specific issue that I raised, however, remains. Blacks in the Caribbean had far more ability to move into society than blacks in the U.S. The various European countries holding land in the Caribbean did not pass the sort of laws passed here to restrict manumission. (Some slaves were able to “earn” their freedom, but the laws were written to discourage that and those people could be resentenced to slavery for a number of transgressions that hardly qualify as law-breaking. The two states that supported a significant number of freedmen were Virginia (which had many descendents of the earliest indentured servants) and Louisiana (that had a much more European culture and did not work as hard to re-enslave free blacks).

Your points regarding the “pensioning off” of injured workers in the North is very true–and was equally true regarding injured workers in Atlanta and Birmingham. It also ignores the fact that a far higher percentage of black people were slaves than white people were injured on the job.

Your point that few whites owned slaves in the South and that the majority of people who fought never owned slaves is also true. As is the fact that that same huge number of non-slave-owning white men voted for the legislatures that passed the slavery laws and voted for secession. They are also the ones who voted for the Jim Crow laws and enforced them with Lynch Law. It is all very well to say “I’m just defending my home” when you have already created the Civil War that caused your home to be in jeopardy to begin with.

Whatever your personal touchiness regarding attitudes toward “red necks,” I have neither expressed those attitudes nor claimed that anti-black sentiment is simply a Southern phenomenon. (One aspect of class warfare, however, which can be seen in Northern Ireland among other places, is that the class on the rung immediately above the lowest rung is the most vociferous in justifying their superiority over the group at the bottom rather than working with that group to correct the larger problems in society.) As to the ability of blacks and whites to socialize in the South, a black leader pointed out in the 1960’s that race relations would come to an even keel in the South before it would in the North. It seems reasonable. It is still true that, North or South, there are a great many obstacles for blacks that whites do not face. Our society is better off, generally, now than it was in 1960. It still has a long way to go.

You have introduced all the reasons why slavery in the U.S. “wasn’t that bad” as well as introducing the whole “red neck” tangent. Telling stupid jokes about a group is not the same as denying them opportunities for employment or housing or selectively targeting them for law enforcement. White people from Appalachia or Oklahoma or Alabama are not routinely denied housing or jobs because of where they were born. Blacks continue to suffer those indignations because of their skin color. Blacks are also selectively targeted for law enforcement at both the local and national levels: see the current brouhaha that the NY Attorney General’s study just kicked up and look at the DEA’s selective enforcement of cocaine laws.

I’m sorry, but it seems to me that bringing the entire society up to the same “level playing field” has more value to it than trying to rationalize why the current inequities aren’t any big deal.


Tom~

There’s an argument floating up there somewhere that recompense is owed the present-day black man because of the burden of his family history, i.e. that his fortunes are worse today than they would have been had the slave-traders never come for his great-granddad. The descendants of the slave-trader owe him weregild, as it were.

Wait a minute. Is the black man in America today really worse off than his distant cousins in equatorial Africa, the descendants of his great-granduncle who escaped the slave-trader?

Not suggesting slave-trading was a good thing; just musing on the curious ramifications of the argument cited.

No, no one has argued for recompense and no one has claimed that blacks are specifically worse off in the U.S. than had they remained in Africa.

(Some may, but that has not been argued in this thread.)

(Although, we can also consider what might have happened in Africa had the Europeans established relations with African kingdoms based on equality of trade, rather than destabilizing those kingdoms in order to produce more slaves and then colonizing the weakened kingdoms. What-if games, while fun, will not resolve current problems.)

John John and KM2 claimed that blacks do not get charged with hate crimes. That has been refuted in the post by deus ex machina. John John also threw out the red herring, quoted by KM2, implying that slavery was simply a fact of life for black Africans and the slaves sent to the U.S. were simply an extension of African social mores.

I took issue with that. LonesomePolecat corrected my statement that the white European slave trade pulled more blacks out of Africa than at any time in history by pointing out that white Arabs had been doing the same thing on a much worse scale for far longer.

My response is that, while no white citizen of the U.S. has to feel guilty about actions performed by our grandparents, (which is the point where the current discussion started), we have an obligation to recognize why so much of black society is mired in the underclass now and to take steps to alleviate that problem. Claiming that “they didn’t have it so bad” is frequently used by closet racists to imply we (of the U.S. society) do not owe them the equality of opportunity. I have no reason to believe that LonesomePolecat feels that way, in particular. He may simply have a hot button regarding misperceptions of Southern history.

The issue is that if we want to reduce the “criminal element,” it would help if we addressed ways to elimiate the perceived need by the underclass to resort to crime. (Perhaps by reducing the size of the underclass?) Taking steps to guarantee equality will do this; talking about how “they were bad, too” will not.


Tom~

I totally agree! Compare “Uncle Tom’s Cabin” to “The Jungle”, and while both had it bad, it is easy to see who got it worse. In fact, I did a paper on it which the campus thought police did not like one bit… but, I digress.

I also think it’s BS that racial attitudes by whites explains the lack of success among blacks today. First, if whites who are “in control” were so prejudiced, how come we have ANY black lawyers, doctors, businessmen, professors, etc? Sometimes, it sounds like whites stacked the deck so horribly against blacks that NONE could’ve made it.

Secondly, how come Asians make it? They have the skin disadvantage blacks have, but also have cultural and language barriers. Yet, at schools like Berkeley, Cal Tech, and MIT, Asians are way out of proportion to their numbers. Korean and Arabs (many fresh off the boat) have started successful businesses, even in poor black areas.

OK, KlanMan, let’s try this little thought experiment: If you woke up tomorrow and discovered you were black, what would your reaction be?

A little addition to the debate:
I’ve yet to see a good historical account of what followed slavery in the southern US (after the Civil War)-which was called “sharecropping”. In this system, the former slaves worked the land (still owned by the plantation owner). They paid their rent in the crops produced, and most were never pain in cash. In many ways, this was probably as bad (ifnot worse)than slavery!

Well, Kelly, sharecropping was slightly better than slavery. Although the former slaveowners did their damndest to try and force the former slaves to remain on the farms as tenant farmers, and in fact had laws set up to try and work that, they could, through a shitload of hard work, buy their way out of debt slavery (which is what the situation and laws amounted to). It was much like slavery, but without the lash.

Well, KM, the reason that there are black professionals as you described is because not all the people in power are against them. However, there are many situations where their progress is made more difficult because of racial attitudes against them. Let’s say that you’re a black boy living in a small town somewhere. You’re family doesn’t have enough money to send you to an excellent school, and you didn’t get quite enough in scholarships, so you are forced to go to the local community college. Now let’s say that the law professor is quite racist and fails this boy. All of a sudden, the law profession is not a possibility for him, regardless of his abilities. Now, this is a hypothetical situation, but you can extend the analogy elsewhere. Business (the foreman gets him fired). Social (higher prices, worse service, can’t complain or get beaten). Even voting (You have to be literate, if the pollster doesn’t like you…). It can be tough, in small situations. Now, what if it’s a regional characteristic? What if it’s very widespread nationally, but not universal. It could be very hard to get ahead in that situation, but not impossible, thus leading to black lawyers, doctors, etc. The Asians you referred to often come here solely for schooling (and go to highly liberal universities) and then go home. That’s not always true, some Americans of asian descent (they’re only Asian-American if they have dual citizenship, I say :P) go to those universities, but those universities are liberal and so skin isn’t a problem. If it weren’t for highly liberal universities, I wonder if minorities would have problems worse than now?

Tomndebb

Of course you’ll be able to find that, blacks don’t get charged with hate crimes quote, where I said that, right tom? You will also find where I said slavery was a fact of life, right tommy?

See, Tommy, this is what I meant by character assasination. You have a history of telling people what hey said and what they meant by what they said. If you don’t like what they said, you’ll invent it to make yourself seem like a champion of the people. WRONG!!


Truth is something you stumble into when you think you’re going someplace else.
[Jerry Garcia]


John John

That is my quote in this thread.
Tomndebb, stop making things up and get your story straight!


Truth is something you stumble into when you think you’re going someplace else.
[Jerry Garcia]