Black. White. on FX

I never said there weren’t different degrees or racism. A lyncher is a racist before he lynches; it begins as a worldview, a set of preconceptions. The dividing line isn’t between action and inaction; it’s between having and not having those preconceptions. Bruno has them. The fact that he’s too stubborn to examine them raises him up the scale a notch, but I never suggested he would consciously support lynching. (I can’t believe I’m even responding to this.) My experience of him, limited as it is and therefore quite possibly mistaken, is that on some level he’d be more likely to believe the black victim of a crime, for example, was more likely to “deserve” it than a white victim of the same crime. Purely a hypothetical example, just trying to explain what I mean. There was something disturbing and patronizing about him “praising” Renee’s chewing out of Nicholas, with something like, “It’s fascinating to hear her chew him out in such a strong *black *voice. I like the way she says “Negro”!” There was just something about the anthropologist in his reaction. I just get an overwhelming sense of white-man’s-burden from both him and his wife; a sense of the “benevolent” plantation owner (to exaggerate to make a point). Like (still exaggerating) the slaveowner who loves his darkies, and treats them well, and knows that his slaves will never revolt because he gives them shoes. The selfcongratulatory master who thinks slavery is OK if you feed your slaves well. Again, WAY exaggerating; the degree is different, but the overall attitude is parallel. In my reading of Bruno. Which could very well be wrong.

And your second paragraph makes no sense whatsoever, except as a surreally amusing example–surely it’s satire?–of an argument ad absurdem.

Kind of a disapointing episode, as it didn’t seem like much happened.

Carmen is just so clueless you want to smack her. She needs to stop using “black” in front of every word she usues to describe people. How about, “what a beautiful creature” instead of “beautiful black creature”? The latter is like saying: wow, you’re beautiful, for a black person.

I hadn’t realized what a slacker Nick was. At first he just seemed like most teenage boys I know-- exuding maximum disengagement. His parents seem to be solidly middle class to upper middle class, so one wonders what kind of life he expects to make for himself as a high-school dropout. Certainly nothing like he used to.

Carmen had the best line, with the “Negro” comment. Damn, woman. You are one Samuel L. Jackson of a mom. But I don’t see her as being a very effective parent. Teenagers don’t respond well to screaming. I like Dad’s approach much better.

And that would be “Renee had the best line”, not Carmen. :smack:

I just watched episode two and I’m just… shaking my head, here.

There’s a certain kind of… liberal patronizing that Carmen can’t stop herself from expressing aloud, that comes from, what I can tell, assuming a familiarity that’s undeserved and nonexistant. I can guarantee she’s had this problem crop up in her life before.

Case In Point. Afrter agonising about lying to them, after doing the hard work of confessing her sham and trying to earn back their trust, Rose’s black friends come over to share poetry. They seemed to have moved past the initial decption. Then all of a sudden Carmen gets up to perform poetry extemporaniously?? As soon as I saw her get up, I’m all like: What the hell are you doing there, Carmen? Please sit down.

I knew this would not end well.

When she called out Chad for being gay. I’m like: WTF?? Unfortunately, Chad blew her off (to nervous laughter) and that probably convinced Carmen it was okay to move on… to exoticize the sister with the low 'fro and big hoop earrings as “a beautiful black creature.” Even her daughter cringed.

Only self-segregated throroughly deluded people who never go anywhere or learn from earlier faux pax would do something that dumb.

(Brian was a dick for cracking up, though.)

But Renee and Brian are equally guilty of assuming the worst in people and not looking out for Carmen or Bruno. Probably the reason Renee was so sensitive about being called a bitch is that she is, in fact, bitchy as fuck. Having made several errors, she refuses to accept Carmen’s tendencies to put her foot in her mouth as a character flaw and assumes the worst. That’s not right.

Case in Point: Renee let Carmen buy the African robes as a special outfit to attend a black church. She should NEVER have let that happen. She should feel fine with telling Carmen, point blank, don’t do that. She seems unwilling to teach or share actual nuances of African-American culture and Carmen desperately needs that kind of coaching and guidance.

Of course BRUNO wouldn’t know any better. He’s the quintessential Ugly American. lissener nailed it when he said they’re acting like they’re on safari. This was very evident when they were at the church. They would never have done with they did without make-up. It’s a bad idea to do it in front of two people who know damn well you’re in disguise.

(I may point out, that as a member of the United Methodist Church, with families in the African Methodist Episcopal and Colored Methodist Episcopal churches, that particular AME church service was about as Southern Baptist as you can get… in California! Man. I’m used to a more reserved black service and that wasn’t at all. I wouldn’t be as embarassed or angry the way Renee and Brian were, but Carmen nor Bruno certainly weren’t reverent.) Despite Bruno’s boneheaded assessment, it’s not really a rally. It’s not really a show.

Anyway. On to part three…

**lissener: ** I disagree with you about the dividing line between racism and not being racist. All other things being pretty much being equal, the dividing line is precisely between action and inaction. Bigots and racists share many beliefs, but between them but only a racist would go to the extreme of causing harm to defend a notion of racial purity or ethnic superiority, and racists have a tendency to do so openly and without shame. I thank you for putting it in those terms.

Even your example that Bruno, “on some level… [would] be more likely to believe the black victim of a crime, for example, was more likely to “deserve” it than a white victim of the same crime,” – which I agree with – is not a racist attitude, that’s a bigoted and prejudiced one.

I agree 100%. Every time she says “black” I hear her saying “not white.” Every time she says it she draws a distinction.

They’re both at fault for where he’s at. Both of them are 100% on target about what’s wrong with him; but neither one puts much effort at all into positive help. They’re all about telling him what not to do; there’s been very little telling what *to *do, except vague far-off punitive sounding things like “you’re *goin *to college.” He’s floundering and getting zero real help.

Agreed. I see Bruno as being genuinely curious, but with a huge ego getting in the way of considering anyone else’s point of view. I think of this as the “old dog new tricks” syndrome that I see in a lot of long-timers in the industry where I work. They have the attitude when presented with something new of “prove it first, then I’ll listen” instead of “I’ll be happy to listen”. In this case, Bruno’s “prove it first” is easy to mistake as racism, because racism is the subject being presented. I’m sure he’d have the same “prove it first” stubborn block if the show was called Capitalist.Marxist. and he was swapping lives with a Leninist family.

So I still totally disagree with lissener about Bruno being racist.

I think Bruno is more of a classist, he shows an inner contempt of poorer economic classes, equating it with being lazy. I think he would be equally as contemptuous of a white gansta punk and he would a black gansta punk.

Hm. I see bigotry as a general rubric, which includes beneath it more specific types of bigotry like racism and homophobia. Racism is race-oriented bigotry.

Now, overt or violent or latent or cultural racism are all different levels of racism, but latent cultural racism is still racism. As I see it.

Racism can be mild, even almost innocuous–especialy in someone self-aware and conscious of their issues–but to call it something else makes very little sense to me.

lissener. I see racial bias as a general rubric and adjuest terminology from there. We are not that far apart in our thinking. Please consider adding several terms to your vocabulary describing various degrees of racial bias. The definitions are mostly mine. Feel free to nitpick.

Racial bias – perceived distinctions based in so called “racial” differences

Prejudice – (mostly) mild, innocuous racial bias and presumptions often based on pre-formed stereotypes.

Bigotry – (mostly) intractable racial bias, even when confronted by facts to the contrary.

Ethnocentrism – essentially, latent cultural racism. An anthropological norm that assumes the culture and people you were brought up with as “the best.”

Xenophobia — overt cultural racism defining an entire culture. “Other” cultures and ethnic groups tend to be viewed as inferior.

Racism – race-oriented extremist bigotry, codified into an ideology of racial supremacy, which typically includes actual violence, threats of violence and irrational hate.

Ethnic cleansing – when racism is a political policy applied to large ethnic population groups

Okay. Five minutes into episode three, Carmen’s shrill, furious, self-righteousness just got on my nerves.

If your audience en masse dislikes what you said or jumps to the wrong conclusion, if people who KNOW you could see the ambivalance in your statement, then please accept the possibility you used the wrong terms your audience would not relate to. Do not blame them for the wrong words coming out of your mouth. Way to blame the insulted.

I will say Carmen was dead on correct that she needs a black friend and guide to help her understand the black community. Reaching out to Deanna was interesting, but I wonder why that guide they gave Rose in episode one to assimulate into her new looks wasn’t available to help her Mom?

Nick is an interesting case. He’s so detatched and disinterested in racial problems even in the abstract that he can’t really even focus on them in the concrete. For his father to ask him what racism is, and for Nicholas to respond, “I don’t know, I don’t care” points to some major deficiencies as parents both Brian AND Renee need to own up to. The fact that this apathy has affected his school career to the extent that it has is not surprising at all. He has no sense of future, no money management skills to speak of. “Consequences? I don’t care about them, I’m not thinking about 'em. They’re the last thing I’m thinking about.” That’s spooky coming from a kindergarten student, let alone a (obstensibly) grown ass man.

When he spent $150 on the watch, and Rose let him do so without counselling him otherwise, I was disappointed in her a bit. (Fact is, I think he was blowing that kind of money around her in a vain attempt to impress her. Didn’t he ask her to “model” clothes for him earlier in that shopping trip? You see his always got his hands on her back and arms.)

ASIDE: It’s amazing to me that Rose, who’s so thoughtful and aware, came from two such oblivious parents. I can’t believe Nicholas, whose parents who are distinctly aware of racial biases, can be so racially inattentive and unconcerned.

Big props to both Renee and Brian for jumping on Nicholas’ trifling handling of money, and Brian for going to the store. I think he should have made Nicholas return the watch himself, but that’s me.

Okay… watching Carmen and Bruno in the cowboy bar saloon, with the Confederate flag on the wall was just the wake-up call I needed to see them go through. I was actually pleased to see Carmen note that she was, in fact, being treated differently. I was astounded to see Bruno miss little digs like the white guy telling him that he’d be fine line dancing “as long as he had the rhythm” and all those camera shots of people staring at him from across the room or standing next to him with their arms crossed. And this is MINOR prejudice at best. Seeing her freak out about it was funny as shit, to me. I hate to gloat, but having personally endured much worse in far more dire circumstances, I had to shake my head. But I was kind of sympathetic. And at least Carmen called out her husband on his declaring not to notice any difference in his treatment during her confessional to the camera. But hearing Bruno’s shallow idea that an oppressed person facing this kind of steady, frequent, unaccepting hostility all their lives should simply “move on with it” was a joke. It’s like telling someone gay to “just get over it.” When he confessed that four black players decided to blackball him (har-har) and not pass him the ball anymore, it sounds like to me he decided to just quit playing ball without a fight. Many black males I know do not have that option.

Rose and Nick’s talk about his academic troubles was nice. The boy has judgment issues dating back years. Caught with a knife at school. No explanation for why he was put out during the second incident.

Carmen’s reveal to Deanna was hilarious. I was initially glad Deanna broke it down for her where she misstepped in her reactions and interactions. When Bruno joined them in makeup, and they went to that pro-black area with the drummers, I was cracking up at Carmen’s unease. This chick cannot help but say the absolutely wrong thing, can she? When she said it was “very tribal” and that “the blacks were gathering” I was cracking up. I imagine if Renee or Brian saw that they were pissed.

Bruno is just… willfully oblivious. He picks his words with extreme care. He will not say what’s on his mind. He constantly misconstrues things.

What really gets me is that they did not even experience open racism. They encountered prejudice, bigotry and described at atmosphere of hostility. They encountered some drumming. Nobody threatened their safety. Nobody was rude. Nobody called them names. But Carmen was willing to possibly exacerbate the situation and get back in there unescorted and try to win those people over. I don’t think her safety was really an issue. I just hate to see awkwardness.

Still – it’s amazing how when they experience bigoted attitudes, there’s no question it’s racism, but when Brian or Renee say that those attitudes are out there, Bruno implies that’s their fault. Hmm.

I wonder if Brian plans to out himself as a black man on his job?

Renee and Brian yelling at Nick was a bit hard to watch. the kid failed two grades and was 16 in 8th grade! How did they let this happen? Isn’t it a little bit of closing the barn door when the horse is already out to lecture him about his poor spending habits? Maybe if they did a little less hollering and a little more constructive guidance, Nick would still be in school. What does he do all day long?

Provocative editorial in the NYTimes, extremely relevant to this discussion.

This show is bad, bad to the point that I’m watching it for flaws rather than substance. As Askia notes, Carmen’s presumption that the world has it in for her speaks to a privileged existence. Damn it woman, if several people are telling you your words are offensive - they’re offensive. Learn to convey your feelings in a way that doesn’t objectify people. Would she really tolerate someone referring to her as a “creature?”

The whole show is a sham. The LA Times ran a story explaining how Bruno is an actor/substitute teacher, and not married to Carmen. Sure, they may be a family, but I feel that should have been noted in the show. Rose apparently has a few TV credits from the Disney Channel. Doesn’t necessarily mean something’s afoot, but just seems a little odd, don’t you think?

The other thing I found jarring was Renee’s verbal beatdown of Nick. It… didn’t seem like it was real. Now I come from a Black family, and by the time you’re 16, you know what sets your parents off. Nick acted as if he had never heard his parents’ thoughts about the bling-bling. It looked like an orchestrated moment for TV, not unlike Bill Cosby’s lecture to Theo on one of the first ever Cosby Shows. It made me immediately think that they were either acting, or he was not their child.

This might be impolite of me, but I suspect that Nick has a learning disability. He seems to have a very hard time expressing himself clearly. I thought Rose’s question about if he was kicked out of school on purpose was a perceptive one…

The situations that these people get themselves into are terribly contrived. Walking into a honky-tonk? Making a interracial couple appearance in a park? Just… don’t seem real. Bruno was aggravating the shit out of me during that whole segment, with his constant moans of how he could feel racism. Carmen clearly has no fucking idea what’s going on. I loved how the vendor responded: “I have no idea what you’re talking about.”

Carmen does get points for explaining what the effects of sustained racism might be on African Americans to Bruno. Of course, he can’t hear it, but at least she seems to get some of it.

I had a hard time believing that Deanna didn’t see that Carmen was faking the funk. I might agree that her makeup isn’t bad… but when she showed up on the doorstep, she didn’t put two and two together? She seems to have the patience to deal with Carmen, unlike Renee. Renee is kind of funky attitude-wise, so it’s good she’s looking to find someone else to help.

Oh yeah, go to for a password to access the latimes.com site.

Thanks lissener for the link to Patterson’s op-ed. Can’t say I totally agree with his argument, but worth considering.

FWIW, you might want to email a mod to remove that url. The Reader is a newspaper too and its representatives are likely to look askance at sites whose sole purpose is to circumvent the L.A. Times’ registration requirements.

thanks lissener. I emailed SkipMagic, but any other mods who can fix post #52, that would be great, thanks… Sorry!

Did anyone see episode four? What’s your take?

Rose is definitely getting the most out of this cultural/racial crossover. When she talks about her perception of black culture having a strong sense of identity and history, she’s quickly corrected how that’s not quite true. Her experiences really show how she seems to gain an intimate understanding of African-American culture, but at the same time sensing there are still some barriers to her access and acceptance because she’s white.

For me, personally, this episode also brings evidence about something I’ve said for awhile now about how African-American culture is at its core essentially insecure, and we see hints of that insecurity in this episode when people talk about things like not really knowing who you are and where you come from, or knowing how, day to day, you know you’ll face situations where you’ll be snubbed on the basis of your skin color. As Carmen said, that would either really empower her or really make her lose it. (We all know Carmen would probably lose it.)

Carmen is slowly making some strides in her understanding of the insiduous nature of dealing with constant prejudice, bigotry and discrimination. I think her watching her daughter (while in black make-up) getting shot down for jobs definitely helped contribute to that, as well as the causal snubbing of their group (including the girl from her poetry class) while out on the street. The only other contemporary prejudice is that blatant and widespread is the kind directed to openly gay homosexuals, lesbians, bisexuals and transsexuals. I think Carmen’s torn a bit between her new understanding of the insiduouslness of racial bias and her husband Bruno’s complete lack of empathy and his constant blame-the-victim-for-not-being-cheerful-upbeat-model-minorities attitude. I was thinking, honestly, the producers would hook up Bruno with an assimilationist, corporate African-American type, and was pleased they just found an ordinary hardworking brother. I’d like to see that. Bruno’s likely acceptance of someone like that would neatly underline his bigotries: it’s okay to look black, as long as you don’t act like it.

Renee and Brian don’t do much in this episode except confront what a sorry job they’ve done making Nick aware of his ethnic heritage. Most surprising for me, and possibly troubling to anyone else watching this episode, is how Nick, after coming more or less clean about being black to his rich etiquette group, could let anyone not black use the n-word in his presence without correcting them. At one point, he invites them to use the word! (“It’s cool, it doesn’t bother me.”) Renee was typically pissed without being very constructive, and Brian takes Nick to a black barbershop to have him get schooled by the barber on how that’s not cool. Nick listens and changes his ways. I guess when a big black dude using cutting implements on the back of your neck tells you something’s not cool, you tend to listen.

Regarding Renee and Brian, I’m not sure what they’re getting out of this experience except validation that racial bias exists. DUH. Hell, they can drive around Bel Aire and get that. One thing that I’d like producers to do, either this show or in future installments, is show how some white racial bias against blacks might well be understandable, if not precisely justified, if their experiences with blacks are limited and uniformly negative. I’m not sure how you could safely set that up but it’d be interesting.

Then there’s Nick. Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick. So much growing up he needs to do. I rarely see avoidance and disengagement as a coping mechanism taken to such an extreme in all facets of one’s life.

Bruno continues to find it difficult to connect with African-American culture, people, prevailing attitudes in that culture, even people whom he’s paired with. It’s mostly because he can’t allow himself to really be open to new experiences or allow them to change his mind. At the black comedy club, there in black makeup with his wife, he can’t laugh or understand the humor around him, and says in a rare moment of unguarded speacking that he’s frustrated by his inability to empathize.

An interesting thing occurs when Bruno gushes about wanting to meet a “successful” black guide. When he meets his black handler, a jazz musician, he focuses AGAIN on the black youth hip-hop culture and won’t listen to the guy telling him about his experiences with racism and prejudice and he alienates him, too. Damn. That’s five black people Bruno has managed to alienate with his pig-headedness. (Knowing that Bruno is not Rose’s biological father but her mother’s boyfriend clears up the mystery of where Rose got her level-headedness from. I think Rose’s biological dad, if he’s still alive, must be a neat guy.)

Bruno describes himself as “staunch” at one point, and to me, in most instances you can replace the word “staunch” with the words “pig-headed,” “intractable”, “obstinate” and “stubborn” and get a more accurate picture. Bruno increasingly paints himself as a class bigot and anti-black youth culture, and allows that prejudice to – excuse me – color his perception of all things African-American.

I want to see more class and political ideologies explored more, especially with Renee and Brian. I want to see Renee and Brian rub shoulders with rich white conservatives, poor-to-working class black nationalists, and working class whites while dressed in white makeup. Or, walk around as an “interracial” black couple. Should be loads of fun.

I would have liked Carmen and Rose to go back to their neighborhood without makeup and ask for applications, just to see what happened then.

Meh. I don’t have much to say about the episode beside mentioning that Bruno is really trying his hardest to come across as an ass to the entire nation. Previously I felt Rose experienced the most embarassing moment on the show with her “rap” a few weeks back but Bruno’s video… well, there are no words. I was rapidly losing patience with the Sparks’ but my respect for them spiked when they responded with… absolute indifference.

I still think something is amiss with the Sparks and how they relate to Nick. I find it hard to believe he is their child and has lived with them all his life…

Bruno’s video was one of the most ridiculous moment of the show so far. Does he really think that was incisive social commentary? So many older white people have the same attitude about African American youth culture-- scornful, dismissive, insulting, completely close-minded. How does this man not see what a prejudiced jerk he is? It’s getting a little frustrating to watch him be so intractable. Black people should just be logical in their reactions to racism? Yeah, right. Because that’s why people use racist epithets and people are upset by them-- because logic is the operative mode here. I hope Carmen does dump Bruno as she alluded she might. She at least tries to be open-minded in spite of her cluelessness.

Nick is an interesting kid Yeah, I can believe Renee and Brian are his parents. They had a similarly nonchalant attitude towards Bruno’s video that Nick had to his idiotic etiquette classmates’ bandying of the n-word. Huh? Renee pitches a shitstorm when Carmen says “bitch” or “creature,” but that video gets nary a rise out of her? I don’t get it. Maybe they have outrage fatigue when it comes to Bruno, or maybe Renee just likes giving Carmen a hard time. Nick seems pretty detached from everything, which is what worries me. Something is not right about that kid, and the racial issue is the least of it, as I see it. His parents need to stop yelling at him and reacting to his mistakes and try to help him stop making them.

Those obnoxious kids who were saying the word “nigger” over and over were just asking to be punched in the face. So many white guys that age are dying to transgress with that word. They hear it in their music and in the culture they wish they could say it too, so when they got “permission” from an African-American, they go crazy. Obviously they were scared witless when Brian and Renee came to the table and we got their whiny excuses and awkward silences but no apology. It wasn’t the use of the word per se that bothered me so much as their giddy excessiveness with it and sullen self-righteousness when called on it. I believed them when they said they wouldn’t just say it to anyone, but that’s out of a sense of self-preservation, not out of any personal decorum.

Rose remains the stand-out person on this show, though it’s interesting that I had no idea Bruno wasn’t her father until it was revealed in this thread. Hmmm. She also expressed that envy of the automatic connection among African-Americans that seems to be the other side of the coin from the white guys gleefully saying the n-word over and over. It’s a club that you can only be in if your ancestors came here in chains, and a lot of white people don’t know know how to feel about that: any club you can’t be in must be dismissed or scorned v. I’m so jealous that I can’t be in that club v. what a high price to pay to be in the club v. it’s not a club, you idiot, it’s a cultural identity, and you can’t have access to someone else’s even though yours is lame, so you cry about it.

Hey, at least the show is though provoking even if it is ultimately a disappointment.

Enderw24. I think seeing the contrast in (likely) different treatment would have made any racial bias all too clear.

Hippy Hollow. Maybe in Bruno’s twisted mind getting the Sparks to ignore his racial jabs is “proof” that all they needed was the right attitude. “See? You didn’t get mad, you didn’t let me get you down. You ignored me with dignity!” Well, a dumb prejudice is easy to ignore, dummy. Intractable bigotry, racial hostility and discrimination aren’t so easy to dismiss. It ran you out of the park last week…

Rubystreak. It’s easy to dismiss an idiotic video from a prejudiced idiot, especially when it’s so obvious they’re trying to provoke you. Renee’s beef with Carmen, unintentional as it was, was the sin of being called a vulgar name by a white woman. They were roleplaying, and Renee won’t let go of Carmen’s misstep. Renee is just as intractable in her refusing to forgive as Bruno is about not wanting to reconsider his views African-American culture. I don’t like that kind of inflexible unforgiveable thinking on anyone. As sins go, that was pretty petty thing to hold a grudge over. It probably hit too close to home cuz it’s the truth. Renee is bitchy.