Brass musicians - 3 year old plays bugle on first try. How unusual is that?

For trumpeters, buglers, and others of this ilk - is this kid unusually suited for learning to play?

He held the mouthpiece to his lips and blew, and a pretty clean note came out, a couple seconds long. He kept trying and was blowing at least 3 different notes, plus once he hit a pedal tone. He could go higher or lower at will. He’s a little over 3 1/2.

Most people I’ve seen blow any brass instrument for the first time can’t get anything like a note, and usually can’t quite figure out what it would mean to let their lips vibrate while they blow, at least not for a minute or so of trying.

I played trumpet a few years and was even in a band that played free or for drinks, but am no musician. How can we judge this kid meaningfully? Is this a good sign, or is it nothing to pay attention to? And, he’s pretty rambunctuous and has a pretty short attention span, even for a 3 year old. Could an instructor do anything with someone so young and unfocussed?

I am not a brass musician, but I’m a guitarist and have playing alongside brass players since dirt was invented.

Where did you hear about this? Did you mean to leave a link? You’re right that most people don’t just pick up a bugle and blow, although I saw my own son do that (only one good note) when he was 7, with no coaching.

Has this kid been getting instruction, or was this literally the first time he picked up the instrument?

I don’t think brass teachers would touch a 3-year-old, for the reasons you mention. No attention span, embouchure will change as the mouth grows and baby teeth are replaced by adult teeth, etc. A local reeds instructor wouldn’t teach my daughter when she was 10 because she didn’t have all her adult teeth yet.

I’ll allow that such a gifted tad might exist, although history has shown that most child prodigies burn out and never meet the grand expectations when they reach adulthood. They either completely flame out, or their talent plateaus and they join the ranks of the other “good” musicians. And AFAIK most the true greats didn’t show their talents that young, but I could be mistaken about that.

It sounds to me like Napier knows the kid, and saw this himself.

Many Civil War buglers were boys. Cite.

And of course there are the standard Boy Scout bugles.
http://www.scoutbugle.com/BAA.htm

So kids play bugles all the time.

Playing a bugle is more akin to whistling than playing a trumpet, because there are no keys to fumble around with–once you get the hang of the basic embouchure, the sound comes right out (as you have seen). This is also why people can play things like shofars and conch shell horns, because you just need to master the basic “buzz” and bob’s yer uncle.

So your kid is young, but not genius level, sorry. He’s learned a nifty trick, akin to whistling. Nothing to do with any particular giftedness, just that he found a neat new noise to make with a shiny horn. I’d definitely bend that twig, though, because lots of folks start out on bugle and then move up to “real” brass instruments like cornet or trumpet.

ETA: By which I mean, encourage him to keep fooling around with it, but I wouldn’t try to enroll him with a teacher, as IMO three is too young for that sort of thing. Just encourage him to keep his hand in; later when he’s school age, is time enough to find him a teacher if he’s still interested. Threes can change their interests with lightning speed, tomorrow it might be dinosaurs or rocketships.

Thanks, all.

This kid is my grandson. He and my daughter were at the house yesterday and we were making lots of noise and I ran downstairs and grabbed my yard sale Boy Scouts bugle and ran back upstairs and blew it. He was highly entertained so I handed it to him and he started playing. Well, started honking, but mostly in clear and fairly clean notes. Everybody was floored. The notes seemed kind of random so I said “Make your lips tighter and you can play a higher note”, and he started doing that, and we were saying “Play a higher one” and “Now play a lower one” and he would. Then I brought out my old trumpet, and he was honking similarly on that, except he was also playing with all the keys which complicated things. His tiny hands didn’t really work on it. He said “Too big” about the trumpet and went back to the bugle. I wasn’t going to pull out the slide trombone, because one good crash would ruin its slide motion.

So, I think this means he is more able than most to blow notes, and he could be an incredible prodigy, but I don’t think I know where he is on the “more able” to “prodigy” spectrum, and also don’t know whether there are any ways to say.

What are some ways to bend this twig?

He can add the bugle to his toy box, or we can keep pulling it out when he visits.

If there is a Juliard day care, we would pay them a visit to see if anything transpires.

If there is a valved brass instrument more his speed, like a plastic piccolo trumpet with Bob the Builder emblazoned on it, I’d buy him one.

Anybody else?

Well, I can’t really tell how he’s going to come out, but last year in late July I spent a lot of the local fiestas with a group of friends including three kids aged, at the time, between 19 and 25 months old. They got plastic trumpets (real bad bugles, for our purposes) in the fair.

The Nephew, who’s the youngest, had serious problems getting a noise out of his. The middle kid, Alex, whose father is the lead trumpet and second director in city hall’s band, was blowing it out right away - but dissapointed because the buttons didn’t move :smack:; he did manage to get a couple different notes. The eldest learned how to get a note by observing the middle one and taught it to The Nephew.

Alex’ parents told us that he loves playing with Daddy’s old trumpet; they’d bought him a kid-sized battery, filled it with towels and whatnot and Alex’ best reward was being allowed to play “de badry wizou dowel!” (it’s a three-family building but all three flats are occupied by relatives who are ok with the noise so long as it’s “decent hours” and nobody has a headache).

I wasn’t home for the festivities this year, but I understand that Alex’ parents intend to get him into formal musical training as soon as he’s old enough to be accepted at the local conservatory.

I would strongly discourage you from buying him a plastic toy trumpet of any kind. What ya wanna do, to bend this twig, is to make it clear to him–but without nagging or otherwise hammering away at him unmercifully (and ultimately boringly) about it–is that by learning to play this bugle properly, he’s participating in a fine and noble tradition called “Music”, with a capital M. You can phrase it however you want. A plastic toy trumpet will not enable him to participate in a fine and noble tradition called Music, see, because even a Three knows the difference between Real, and Fake, Toy, and Pretend. Encourage him to play his Real Bugle properly, to treat it with respect, to learn to care for it. Get him to play tunes on it–this will tell you if he has a musical ear, because if he can sing a tune, he can pick it out on the bugle eventually. And this is the most fundamental building block of Music with a capital M–being able to sing a tune, in tune.

Also, the plastic toy trumpets I’m familiar with don’t require an embouchure–you just have to blow into them, because they have a fixed reed in the mouthpiece. So they’re really not a brass instrument at all, but a sort of New Year’s noisemaker. So this would be reverse progress, to take him off a Real Bugle and put him on a Bob the Builder plastic toy.

And BTW, start out as you mean to go on and make it clear to him that a Bugle is different from a Trumpet. You don’t have to go into the complex physics reasons why, just point out to him that a Trumpet has keys and valves and is harder to play (perhaps for “Big Boys”?) and plays orchestral and band music, whereas a Bugle is for army calls, like Taps.

And if he seems interested (which however I doubt a Three will have the attention span for, but by the time he’s Five he might), you can explain that a flugelhorn is the band version of the bugle, albeit with keys and valves.

And, er, sorry to rain on yer parade, but he’s not a prodigy. :wink: As I pointed out, boys have been playing bugles for generations. The toy tin trumpet was a standard toy for boys in the 19th century–there’s one in Tom Sawyer, to signal Robin Hood and his merry men, there in Hannibal, Mo. And babies can learn to whistle. The only thing unusual is that he’s Three.

Just encourage him to keep fooling around with it, explain the idea (with demonstrations) of picking out a tune on it. You want to develop his ear.

Part of the attraction, for him, is that it’s something Grandpa does, too, so it’s a male role model/bonding thing for him. “I wanna be like Grandpa!”, see. If you were into woodworking he’d be fiddling around with your plane.

I would not go whole-hog and enlist a teacher for him, or even present him to some music professional as a prodigy, because, seriously, you’ll just set yourself up for a tactful “Umm…” rejection. Just keep him at it. If he suddenly displays an ability to pick out the theme from the 1812 Overture at a first hearing, then what he needs is not bugle or trumpet lessons, but basic piano, i.e. music lessons. Basic piano will ground him securely in the fundamentals of Music with a capital M, which will stand him in good stead in the future much more than focusing solely on playing a single brass instrument at the age of three.

ETA: I would not allow him to add the bugle to his toy box. You wanna instill respect for it as a Musical Instrument–it’s not a toy, you want to stress. You can let him have custody of it, but IME the more you tell a child he can’t have something, the more he wants it. So if this is a Special Thing that he only encounters at Grandpa’s house, he’s more likely to keep up his interest, rather than have it added to his toy box with all his Star Wars and Legos stuff, where it will blend into the scenery and recede into the background as he moves on to other interests like pirates and dinosaurs.

ETA: I should imagine that the good folks at Juilliard have parents and grandparents anxiously bringing their prodigies for evaluation all the time. Personally I wouldn’t set him up for that kind of rejection.

She said drily. :smiley:

Thanks, all.

Like I said, I don’t know where he is on the spectrum from “more able” to “prodigy”. I get it, I get it, you’re saying he’s not at the “prodigy” end. I’m just sure he’s at least “more able”, and didn’t know about anything further. I won’t call Juilliard (or their lesser known sister school Juliard) until I hear they’re accepting everyone who is just above average.

A plastic trumpet would be a nice idea, not in the sense of having a reed in the mouthpiece and valves that don’t actually move, but because our boy here still likes to swing things around and hit things with them. I mean, he’s not very advanced in the arts of patience and quietude. We’re still mostly concerned with keeping delicate objects up high and that sort of thing. Plastic doesn’t have to mean cheap. I just dropped $300 on a plastic camera that probably has 1000 functions, including easily 10 or so that really belong on the camera. If there was a brass instrument, not made of brass, that you could hit things with, that would be perfect. There are saxaphones made of brass that aren’t brass, right? So why not a brass instrument made of plastic? For starters?

Or, well, actually, no - that would be exactly wrong. DDG, you’re right, something special that he and I can do, with a special Musical Instrument that’s not a toy and won’t be left out in the rain, that’s the thing.

I liked to have my own things to experiment with when I was little, and so I’m wondering how to balance the Special versus the constant access one has to one’s own things.

What about one of those plastic mouthpieces you can get for playing in the cold? We were playing the mouthpieces, too, and blowing them into cupped hands to make “Wa wa” sounds. He could play with his embouchure without breaking the glass tables. But he’d probably play with the mouthpiece in a birdbath somewhere and lose it…

Well, maybe something somewhere will turn up, or maybe the Special approach will pan out.

The fact that he, on the first try, could play notes on a bugle, while his mother and grandmother both cannot even after I’ve tried to show them how a few times, just strikes us powerfully. We wouldn’t want to miss a chance, you know.

A thought: When I took up tuba, I was able to get notes out of it immediately, but had a very difficult time when I borrowed a band-mate’s trumpet. I think this might be because of the difference in size of the mouthpiece: An adult playing the tuba is vibrating most of the lips, while an adult playing the trumpet is vibrating only a fairly small portion of the lips. A three-year-old, however, has smaller lips than an adult, so they might fit better into a trumpet mouthpiece. It’s possible that he finds it easier than most adults precisely because he’s younger (and therefore smaller).

Yeah, you say he’s Three? :smiley:

I’m guessing that the age you’re remembering, when you had your own things to experiment with, is more like Four, Five, or Six, rather than Three. Even a Four is a totally different beast from the Three he was a year ago, you’d hardly recognize it as the same child. A Four can take rudimentary care of a treasured object, because he’s had some experience with loss (the teddy bear dropped into the river, the favorite blankie left at the park). A Three can’t really grasp that yet. So when he’s Four, you could think about getting him his own bugle–I’d go with one of those Boy Scout bugles. It needs to be a “real” bugle, but not Grandpa’s, because you don’t want to obsess, however involuntarily, with how he’s taking care of it. Also, a Four is old enough to understand the musical principle of duets, so Grandpa needs to have his own bugle to help him learn about things like harmony.

Mmmm…nah. For a couple reasons. (A) a mouthpiece is obviously, even to an inexperienced Three, not a Bugle. It’s just a widget that bears no resemblance to a kewl trumpet-like thingie. By this time he’s had enough ABC books with “T is for Trumpet” that he knows what a trumpet is.

And if he had picked up a trumpet mouthpiece and started buzzing on it, it wouldn’t have made Grandpa go “wowser!” and start talking about Juilliard. :wink: :smiley: You may be sure that he’s quite aware that Grandpa is very impressed by his bugling; Grandpa wouldn’t be nearly so impressed by his buzzing a mouthpiece.

And (B) the sound you get out of a mouthpiece isn’t anything like what you get out of a bugle. Not as satisfyingly loud, not as musical, not as…“neato”, for lack of a better word.

Yeah, I get that. But take it from someone who approached her seven-year-old’s vague interest in the piano by rushing out and obtaining a piano teacher for her, with the result that she immediately turned off and hasn’t touched it since (and she’s now 24)…you don’t wanna bend the twig too overtly. With the second daughter, when at age 9 she expressed a vague interest in the piano, I showed her the stack of John Thompson books, told her I’d give her a sticker for each page she could play correctly for me, and then left her strictly alone, with the result that she actually worked her way through Teaching Little Fingers To Play and the first third of the First Grade book all by herself before she got tired of it and moved on to whatever Tween thing she was into at the time.

And Three is really, really young; the interests shift from hour to hour. I hate, for both your sakes, for you to get all pumped up and get him a teacher, only to have him lose interest after the first couple of days. Just seems like it’s setting him up for failure, is all, because the true three-year-old prodigies are the ones who don’t merely get a sound out of an instrument, but are the ones who obsessively can’t let it go, can’t stay away, because the piano or the violin or whatever feeds some deep inner need, and who immediately begin at least attempting to produce adult-level music, not just noodling away during odd moments. Think of the tiny three-year-old piano prodigy playing Mozart, or at least an awfully good simulacrum. I’m not seeing that here, but really, I’m not trying to rain on your parade, and I’m sorry that it seems to keep coming out that way. I know you’re just doing the Fond Grandpa thing :smiley: ; it’s your job to boost yer grandkids, so props to ya. :smiley:

Get back to us when he plays like Maynard & then we can really talk unusual.

>Get back to us when he plays like Maynard & then we can really talk unusual.

Yeah, I know! I almost played The Fox Hunt off of MF Horn 4&5 (the one recorded at Jimmy’s) for him. I mean, “I almost dug out the album”, not “I started playing screech”.
>the age you’re remembering, when you had your own things to experiment with, is more like Four, Five, or Six

Wow, I’m way off. I can’t remember being his age. I loved having my own things to experiment with at 6 or more, I think.
>A Four can take rudimentary care of a treasured object, because he’s had…
>picked up a trumpet mouthpiece and started buzzing on it, it wouldn’t have made Grandpa go “wowser!” …
>Three is really, really young; the interests shift from hour to hour.

DDG, you have a world of excellent things here. I’m cogitating on them all. I may print this out and hang it in the downstairs office.

And by the way, he’s about 3.9, his birthday’s next month. And yet his interests seem to shift every 10 minutes or so, and his speech is hard to understand and usually in little snippets. He does, though, have pretty advanced coordination for his age. He’s a bit off of average, above in some categories and below in others, and one must always be on the lookout for an unusual gift, right?
>it’s your job to boost yer grandkids, so props to ya.

Hey, you’re allright! Thanks!

Oh, absolutely. Just don’t be nagging at him about it. :smiley: Bend the twig–“Hey, you’re really good at that!”–but don’t rush around finding him teachers and whatnot.

If I’m detecting a trace of concern because he doesn’t speak fluently, remember that kids tend to focus on one thing at a time while they’re growing up. Right now he’s focusing on physical skills, which means the language skills get put on the back burner. He’ll catch up, never fear–Just about the time he discovers dinosaurs or pirates, and then you’ll sigh longingly for the good ol’ days of Three, when he never talked, whereas now he won’t shut up and if you hear one more word about a T.Rex eating a diplodocus, you’ll pop…

And I know at least one 18-year-old who still doesn’t speak fluently–she jabbers in a teenage stream-of-consciousness verbal blur. Conversations with her have me going, “What?” a lot.

So don’t worry about the “talking” thing too much. If she can go off to college talking like a hamster on speed, there’s hope for your grandson. :smiley: