Choices were made from options available. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.
You don’t think the facts that they
[ul]
[li]were wearing body armor[/li][li]were considerably younger & fitter[/li][li]have professional (& hopefully ongoing) training in how to deal with these types of incidents &[/li][li]knew they were going into a dangerous situation & had time to mentally prepare themselves for that (ie. knew to take cover) before they got on scene vs. someone who was going about their daily life & may literally, not know what hit them plays anything into it. [/li][/ul]
The victims ranged in age from 54-97. How many 97 yo have the physical strength or mental dexterity to handle a gun anymore?
That’s simply not true. We had guns readily available when I was a kid. The rural schools had shooting clubs. Kids brought their guns to school. background checks started in 1993.
These people are the latest human sacrifices to a change in US society where life has less value. In WW-II there where 6 million civilian Jews who were sacrificed to a cult of violence. They literally didn’t have the value of a bullet and were gassed to death to save money.
He tried to flee when they arrived. He wasn’t trying to flee because they had body armor. He was trying to flee because they had the capacity to shoot back.
the logical answer to your question would be to arm the 54 year olds but I suspect you could reason that out.
Was it? None of the shootings of churches I remember took place on empty buildings.
BEEP!
I’m afraid you forgot that the 54 year olds were mentally disabled.
So to break it down, when the shooter was confronted with multiple well-trained, armed police, he not only managed to seriously injure four of them, but was also able to get back into the synagogue where he was free to resume shooting. So yes it definitely follows that a random person with a gun should have been able to stop him.
I know a church where there is this nice old man sitting in a chair in the foyer facing the front door. He is a nice guy to sit and chat with. You wouldnt know it but he is former military with a CCW permit and carries a handgun. He knows the exact distance to the front door and frequently goes to the range and practices quick draws and shooting at that range.
I know another where the drummer, up on the stage, is a CCW who faces the front and is ready to deal with any problems.
My point is you can have CCW people ready and able to intervene and the average person wouldnt even know it. Many churches and synagogues already have persons with police and military weapons training so why not use them?
Without getting into the technicalities of halacha (Jewish law), one may carry in a public area if it’s surrounded by an eruv. In Israel, most, if not all Jewish cities and settled areas are surrounded by an eruv, so carrying is not a problem. Even without such a device, carrying a weapon, especially in Israel, might be considered pikuach nefesh (an act for preserving human life), which would most likely override the laws of Shabbat. (I am not a Rabbi, nor do I play one on TV; consult your local Orthodox rabbi for more details.)
We live in Beersheva. My wife grew up in Squirrel Hill, and most of her family is still there. My wife knew one of the victims; he was the father of her best friend growing up.
America has never considered life to be of value, save for those of a tiny self appointed elite. The fact that there is some push back against that is part of what drives people like the shooter.
A determined surprise-shooter will usually beat even multiple armed civilians. Not my story, but a friend’s:
I was hanging out with some old buddies, several of them military veterans (and one former cop), talking about politics and guns. A few of them are CCW (concealed carry weapon) holders, and one was armed even at this get together (he was always armed). Yes, a dangerous topic, but we’ve been friends a long time and so we can argue without getting too upset. Most of them think that the answer to school shootings is more guns – ex-cops or vets as guards in the schools, and guns available for teachers and faculty. I disagreed, as did one other friend.
At some point I stepped away to use the bathroom. There was a paper bag in the bathroom with some old medication in it. I emptied the paper bag, blew it up with air, and snuck back onto the porch where we were hanging out. Before anyone noticed me, I slammed my hands together with the bag in the middle, with a tremendous BANG!!! Every single one of my friends clapped their hands to their ears and jerked their bodies away from the noise. At the same time, I crooked my finger, pointed it at each one, and loudly said “Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang…”. I easily “shot” each one of my friends with my finger before they even understood what was happening, much less reacted. Mind you, these were mostly military veterans and an ex-cop, all hanging out and chatting.
The subject changed after that.
wrong forum
I realize this punches some hot-button items, here. But it’s really not the place. I think it’d be better to have that debate in Great Debates.
It’s a cliche, to say that the response to hate is love, not more hate. It’s a platitude. It sounds hokey, like “thoughts and prayers”. Sometimes you need good, righteous anger to make a difference.
And yet…
And yet, I look at those people, those haters, those killers. The ones who sit at their computers all day spreading lies. The ones who sit all day reading lies. The ones who are terrified of people- human beings just like them- people who merely have a different ancestry or skin color- terrified that if They can walk down the street without fear, then They will devour Us. Those sad, small, pathetic people who have spent their lives stewing in anger and hate.
I don’t want to hate today. Not out of mercy or compassion or the idea that if I smile and sing Kumbaya we’ll all suddenly get along. It’s for my own sake, because I see what it looks like when you lose yourself in bile, and I don’t want that to happen to me. Disgust, sadness, even pity; there is much here that is disgusting, saddening, and pitiful. But I am trying not to dwell on hate.
wow. So how long have you had problems reading maps?
fingers are not guns. If you pulled out a gun or a knife or any other potential weapon the situational awareness would be much different than a finger.
what it comes down to is a choice to wait for the police to arrive or not. I don’t see much hope in the waiting period.
And Jesus wept. I’m not religious, but I was when I was a kid, and it is sick, sick, sick to propose filling churches full of guns rather than doing something about the root cause.
Urbanredneck, maybe where YOU live, but not where I’m at. I can’t imagine such a thing at my church growing up.
My sympathies for your loss. I’m guessing Squirrel Hill wouldn’t count as eruv.
what’s the root cause.
Churches traditionally (and I hate to have to put it that way but words escape me right now) have been more bombings. In terms of shootings the ones I remember inside a church were the result of domestic situations gone wrong. And in the case of the Temple in Carnegie it was just someone shooting up the empty building late in the evening - some Neo-Nazi if memory serves. I’m not saying there haven’t been any like this in the US – just that they aren’t in my brain right now or what I expect.
Did you not see the moderator instruction a few posts above this? The idea of having armed guards in places of worship is a perfectly reasonable topic for debate. Lucky for you we have an entire forum dedicated to debates. We have plenty of internet to go around so feel free to open a debate thread in GD and explore all aspects of the issue. There is also a current multi-page Pit thread on this subject if you need to be more ranty. Any further hijacking of this thread may cause warnings for failure to follow moderator instructions.