Citizens armed with shotguns will patrol the streets of the heavily Jewish Brooklyn [New York] neighborhoods because of possible terrorists targeting them, a Rabbi said.
The street patrols would include 50 to 200 people, mainly Jews, carrying shotguns, along with people carriying other types of firearms.
Now, first I want to know if you think this is a good thing or not. And if so, why is it up to civilians to walk around armed, protecting the neighborhood? Why not just have more police presence? And, if it is good for Jews to protect their neighborhood from terrorist, what about other people patroling armed, protecting their neighborhood from urban terrorists, i.e. Gangs.If you agree with one and not the other, defend why.
My view is this: This is a militia! Civilians taking up arms for the security of a free state! It is an action protected, and encouraged by the 2nd amendment. I applaude it.
Where I have a bone to pick is this: I have observed that many people of the Jewish faith are very quick to back strict gun control laws: gun bans, anti-carry laws, anti-militia laws, etc… Yet those very laws contidict what what is happening here. Will those who endorse such laws condemn what is happening in Brooklyn? Or will they see the error in their beliefs, and realize civillians do need to be armed.
You are assuming that it is the same Jews who support strict gun control laws who are now mounting an organized, armed neighborhood watch or citizens’ patrol or vigilante committee or militia or whatever you want to call it. It seems odd to have to point out that this is not necessarily, or even probably, the case. The Jews in question may never have supported gun control; and the Jews who have supported strict gun control laws in the past may very well not support this action by these other Jews.
Jewish people do not constitute some sort of hive mind, you know.
It is emphatically not an action protected or encouraged by the Second Amendment. The militia must be authorized and controlled by the duly elected officers of the State. In New York, said militia is the New York National Guard.
Fer god’s sake, pkbites. This is really offensive. Perhaps this particular group of Jews are members of the NRA? Nahh, couldn’t be - everyone knows that all Jews think exactly alike on all political issues.
I’m not an anti-gun person (nor am I really pro-gun either). Yet, in my mind, having a bunch of trigger-happy people roaming around Boro Park with shotguns does not seem, to my mind, to be a great thing. It is, in effect, an accident waiting to happen.
There is a group which operates in various neighborhoods in Brooklyn called the Shomrim (hebrew for “watchers”). They are an unarmed neighborhood patrol group, who, to my knowledge, have been praised by the NYPD and the communities in which they serve.
Secondly, there is something wrong with this story. The group that made the threats made them almost 10 years ago. They abandoned the “bomb Jewish neighorhoods” plot in favor of the 1993 WTC bombing. Since then, there has been, to my knowledge, one instance of someone plotting to bomb heavily Jewish areas (a few years ago, someone wanted to bomb the subways where they knew a lot of Jews would be present. The cops got him before the bombing happened). If, in the (at least) nine years that the “threat” has been “active” this group wasn’t needed, then it’s not needed now.
As for your observation pkbites, you’ll generally find that religious Jews have political notions that are almost the opposite of their more-liberal, non-religious brethren. For example, while most Jews tend to vote Democrat and are liberal, many (if not most) of the Orthodox community identifies more with the Republican and Conservative political idealologies.
A) Your stereotyped view of Jews aside, this sounds like an JDL type thing, not the least bit out of character for them.
B) Mob. Lynch mob. All well and good until the first poor little ‘Arab’ looking delivery man gets whacked by some hysterical over-hyped ‘militia’ member 'cause his unmarked delivery truck (other than the typcial graffiti) is 'suspicious.
It appears to escape many people that “terrorists” --unlike in the movies-- seem to rarely carry large placards or other signs say “Hello, I am a terrorist, I am a bad guy, notice my black hat.”
Citizen attention to the saftey of their neighborhood is a good thing. Citizen patrols, properly trained so that they don’t engage in racist or other blatently discriminatory behavour, are a good thing most of the time. Armed mobs in a diverse and fluid city like NYC patroling against some indistinct ‘urban terrorist’ are not.
Here is an interesting article (albeit from 1997) about the Shomirm and how they partner with the Umma Group ( a similar Muslim neighborhood patrol agency).
No it isn’t. And it wasn’t meant to be. I am simply expressing my observations, not an opinion of Jews. And in the course of my life, I have observed that many people of the Jewish faith endorse gun control laws. I did not state that “all” or even “most”, just many. And that, is in fact, my observation. Then I followed up with a question for those “many” Jews who back gun control.
How is any of that offensive?
What if the people in question were instead red headed yuppies?
Would it still be offensive?
Pkbites, a poster on the Straight Dope Message Board (SDMB), is generally supportive of a personal right to gun ownership. I have observed that many posters on the SDMB back strict gun control laws. Yet those very laws contradict pkbites’ stated views. Will pkbites disagree with the other posters who favor gun control? Or will he see the error in his beliefs, and come out in favor of strict gun control laws?
Your post is flawed as I am not doing an activity which contradicts my own stated views.
An example of contradicting ones own views is one of my companies district managers. He constantly says handguns should be banned, opposes concealed carry, backed the Brady Bill, etc.
Then he went out and bought a 9mm semi auto. He bitched that he had to wait 2 days to get it, and he doesn’t like the fact that he can’t carry it as this state has no CCW for civillians. When I busted his chops a bit over this, his honest answer was, while he still fully supports those laws, he doesn’t feel they should apply to someone like him.:eek::mad:
To digress from this a bit, I’d like to know what the local authorities have to say about folks walking around the neighborhood with shotguns. I haven’t heard anything yet.
Thank’s Zev. That was interesting, and gratifying to read as well.
I always believed that there exists a lot of common ground between religious Jews and religious Moslems.
There are enough similarities in the dietary laws that religous Moslems have been known to frequent kosher restaurants. The women dress modestly and even go to the beach fully clothed. Both cultures object to many of the same features of modern society, such as pemissiveness, relativism, ect…
I personally think that Moslems would be great neighbors for Jews in the middle east as well as in Brooklyn.
If they could just free themselves of that HATRED!
And by the way. I think your wrong about pkBites. I think his question was innocent enough. No need to read any hostility into it.
Yes, but you haven’t demonstrated that anybody else is, either.
Some posters on the SDMB have one opinion; some have another. There is no logical contradiction because posters on the SDMB are not (despite my best efforts) a hive mind.
Some Jews have taken an action which is in direct opposition to the stated beliefs of other Jews. There is no contradiction, because Jews no more agree on everything than posters on the SDMB do. The identity of “Jew” in 21st Century American doesn’t even necessarily signify agreement on whether or not there is a God, let alone the proper gun control policy.
Well, I can tell you that I live in a neighborhood that is mixed Jewish (heavily Orthodox) and Pakastani Moslem. I have been living in this neighborhood for the last 11 years. I can’t recall a single incident where there was bad blood between the two groups.
I didn’t. I actually answered his assertion with no animosity whatsover. I think this should have been addressed to the others in this thread.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State …
A militia is a function of government. Citizens may not usurp the functions of government. To try to jam a group outside the control of the government into the rubric of “militia” would allow, for example, John Gotti to say that the Genovese crime family was a militia and all those people they killed were actually enemies of the United States.
From the New York Military Law, Chapter 36 of the Consolidated laws, Article I:
The National Guard is the “organized militia”
The Governor controls both the organized militia and the unorganized militia.
The Governor, at his sole discretion, may call up the “unorganized militia,” that is, the general (male) public. No one else has the authority to call up the unorganized militia.
Why would Moslem parents want to send their children to a yeshiva where (presumably) Jewish studies and Jewish law (which don’t apply to the Moslem kids) would be taught?
I stand by my words. To understand why the offending paragraph was indeed offensive, simply substitute “whites” for “Jews.”
My intepretation of pkbite’s offending paragraph in the OP.
A bunch of Jewish people plan to walk around with guns to protect their community;
Some Jews are in favor of gun control;
The Jews in group No. 2 should either condemn the Jews in group No. 1 or change their opinions on gun control.
Would you ever consider making the following observation?
A bunch of white folks plan to walk around with guns to protect their community;
Some white folks are in favor of gun control;
The white folks in group No. 2 should either condemn the white folks in group No. 1 or change their opinions on gun control.
Why is it, in pkbite’s mind, that only Jews who are in favor of gun control are obligated to either condemn this pack of vigilantes or change their political beliefs? Why didn’t pkbites challenge blacks, Asians, Christians, feminists, Latinos, Chicanos, Buddhists, Wiccans, the transgendered, etc., etc. who are in favor of gun control to either condemn this plan or change their minds on gun control?
Yes, because there’s no justice like angry mob justice.
Seriously though, barring some failure in law enforcement (like when the police were unprepared to deal with the LA riots) there is no need for armed vigilantees to roam the streets with guns.
Say a Muslim cab driver accidently hits a Jewish kid in the street. Do you think that mob could turn real ugly, really quickly?
Because there are a finite number of cops and I would rather see them doing actual threats instead of perceived ones.
Mob rule is not protected or encouraged by the Constitution.
I have not received this weeks issue of the newsletter telling us the “Jewish” view on any political issue. Could someone please forward it to me?