Breastfeeding, "nipple nazis," and "helpful" advice

Great Debates
61

I want to be really honest with you in your quest to understand the negative reaction “lactivists” get. I think that this statement is not universally true, and can be very discouraging to someone who is trying to deal with painful nursing. With my second baby, I had eye-watering pain whenever he latched on for a full 6 weeks. I saw a lactation consultant, who said the latch was correct, but that he might have done a little damage at first because he was such an enthusiastic nurser. So, the fact that there was a problem at the beginning that was pretty much out of my control, it didn’t mean there was an ongoing problem of any kind, but only that I needed to heal (which is kind of hard when the kid is latched onto you for about 6 hours a day or so).

I remember I started a thread about it here because I was so discouraged, and how much better I felt when WhyNot pointed out that the nipple is being treated very traumatically, and it sometimes takes a while to get used to it. That statement did more for me than the hours I spent with the LC, and all the research I did (don’t know if I every thanked you adequately, WhyNot. If I didn’t, please know how grateful I am for that!) The reason what she said was so effective was that she wasn’t placing the blame on me. To try to fight through excruciating pain in order to do the right thing for your baby is very hard, and “something is wrong,” which can sound an awful lot like “you’re doing it wrong” when you are a bundle of exhausted emotion. And especially when you can’t figure out what the hell it could be that you’re doing wrong (at this point, I’d successfully nursed my daughter for about a year, and had never had that problem with her).

I’ll also add that Hello Again has an excellent point about pain tolerance. I’m the first to admit that I’m a highly sensitive type with a low pain threshold. It could very well be that someone else with my problem will only hurt for a couple of weeks, but that was not my experience.

62

Very interesting post. Not sure I agree with it 100% but you bring up a lot of good points.

I am a retired LLL Leader – and yeah, that old Salon article about the hoops Leaders jump through is pretty accurate. The organization is effed up in a lot of ways, and I’ll be straight with all of you here – if you are a working mom, well, the odds are pretty good that the Leader you call up probably never separated from her baby much, if at all. They don’t really like to accredit working moms, though they do some, because they are primarily about mothering through breastfeeding. They can be excellent if you need some support (and face it, if you are the first in your group of friends to have a baby or are far from friends or family, you may feel very isolated) or some info but if you have serious problems, I’d hie myself to an IBCLC, honestly.

And the reason no one much cares about increasing help to working moms is that the profit margin on formula is absolutely immense. It started out as a WASTE product for crying out loud. I’ve read that the cost of ingredients, packaging, shipping and advertising is about 1/10 the cost of a can of formula. They’re printing money with formula, so why do anything to cut that down?

And one last thing. If you don’t want to breastfeed, have the flippin’ ovaries to admit it. Say “I didn’t want to” not “I tried, but…”. Please.

63

I screwed up my shoulder with my daughter - she is nine, and I still have tendinitis in that shoulder. I was assisted by lactation consultants, but my sweetie was an incredibly picky nurser who highly preferred one breast, like to sit in one chair, and sit at a certain angle - anything else, no latch.

Now, was I doing it wrong - no doubt - but since we spent a full week trying to get her to latch at all - a way that ended up causing me what looks like it was permanent damage seems to be the only way it worked at all - and a lactation consultant wasn’t likely know that holding your shoulder like I was for a few hours a day was going to result in permanent damage (frankly, I don’t think anyone would have known I was screwing up my shoulder at the time).

64

An lactivists wonder why people don’t like them.

Give a woman credit for her own “trying” - Don’t judge the amount of effort she went through. If she TRIED she TRIED. If she said she TRIED, don’t assume she is lying.

65

The “trying” people I am talking about tried, in most cases, ONCE. I am sorry you got permanent damage. I do think the LC should have picked up on it, though. The ones I used to work with did notice things like that.

I’ve seen shoulder damage in women caused by hauling babies around in car seats.

And I am hardly a lactivist. And, I will note, one cannot make anyone feel guilty. Feelings are something one does all on one’s own.

66

How do you know this? Were you there in their houses? Had them on surveillance cameras?

67

Isn’t it funny how you have to suffer permanent damage before they ease up on you.

And it’s just Phase 1 of the Mothering Gauntlet.

It’s amazing, what we put women through when they become mothers. I don’t know whose demons we’re exorcising, which fears and angers it’s about. But the judgments and criticisms are relentless.

Eventually a lot of us just give up on appeasing any of you.

Tonight my husband took our 4-yr-old twins to Meijer with inside-out shirts, mis-matched socks and paint-stained pants. My son’s sandals are rarely on the right feet, and my daughter chopped off most of her bangs with her little safety scissors.

I couldn’t care less.

68

Frankly, that like someone who likes to lay down guilt trips.

69

The LCs at the hospital where I had my son were superb. I saw a lot of them during his week inpatient (he had trouble breathing, then when we got that straightened out, trouble eating). Every single one of them had something to tell me that was very useful. The last one that we saw figured out what was preventing us from being able to leave the hospital - and it was a bottle issue. They wouldn’t let us out until he could get a whole feeding by nipple (breast, bottle, or combination) in under 30 minutes. She realized that his problem was that the bottle we were using (Avent) is very tough for newborns, even though it’s very good for older breastfed babies. She went and got a Dr. Brown bottle for us, he slurped down the next five feeds in nothing flat, and they discharged us.

That hospital is unusual in its emphasis on breastfeeding, though. Lots of IBCLCs on staff, a standalone breastfeeding center with a 24-hour hotline for former patients, IBCLCs specifically dedicated to the NICU who were also NICU nurses (one of those was the one who figured out the bottle issue), private rooms in the NICU so that breastfeeding moms can sleep there and feed round the clock.

70

Ain’t that the truth.

71

Let me share a couple stories that illustrate the problem of lack of information.

My story - my first baby had trouble latching, and within days my nipples were cracked and bleeding. It was horrific. But I was lucky to have good support people. The midwives had told me she was tongue-tied, and I (naively) decided not to get her frenulum clipped right away, to see if we could nurse anyway. I was in terrible pain, so we got her clipped, and it really improved things. I never would have been able to continue without that procedure. Then of course I had some other problems that caused continued soreness for a few months, but I pursued help and got everything fixed, and then, finally it worked. It was amazing.

My neighbor’s story - her first baby had trouble latching, and she was having terrible soreness and some nipple trauma. Their pediatrician told them that the baby was tongue-tied, and there was nothing they could do about it. So this mom pumped exclusively for a couple months (which is feckin heroic IMHO), and finally switched to formula because the stress of trying to use only breast milk was messing with her relationship with her baby. With her second baby things were much the same, except this time they kind of expected it to go that way.

THIS is the kind of thing that makes me angry, that I hope organizations like LLL can prevent in the future. This wasn’t a mom who had all the facts and decided that formula was better, considering her circumstances. Frankly, as long as the correct information is available, LLL is not interested in such people. They’re much more about helping people who want to nurse but need support and information to do so. If this mom had come to a LLL meeting and asked about her problem, she would have quickly gotten correct information and resources for fixing the problem. I feel sad for her, but in no way to I blame her! Given the situation as she knew it, she made the best decision.

And that leads me to the guilt question. I have to agree that guilt is a participatory emotion - no one can make you feel guilty without your cooperation. And yeah, sometimes we feel guilty without good reason. But I wish moms could have confidence in their decisions and not blame breastfeeding advocates for “making them feel guilty.” I Ferberized my second baby, and let me tell you, in the circles I run in, that is not very accepted. I mentioned it on breastfeeding.com and got TONS of shit about it. But I never felt guilty about it because I looked at all the facts, looked at the risks of leaving things the way they were, balanced the risks of using the method, and made the best decision for my baby.

Even if a couple nights of a lot of crying caused her some harm, it was less total harm than continuing with two exhausted parents. Can’t formula-feeders make the same honest assessment? Why does it have to be “Oh, LLL is laying a guilt trip on me - they should be nicer!” or “I don’t really believe that formula is inferior.” It is inferior. I’m sorry, those are the facts. In a developed country with safe water, the inferiority may be incremental, and other factors may influence the situation so that formula feeding is a better choice for someone. But that doesn’t negate the fact that, all things being equal, breast milk is better. If things are not all equal, then it’s perfectly rational and justifiable to chose formula instead. It seems there are some crazy people saying that’s not so, but truly I don’t see the vast majority of advocates going anywhere near that - just informing people of the benefits, and offering help if they want to nurse and have trouble.

72

This is exactly what I’m talking about. Thank you for giving us the perfect example, in your own words, of someone who fell victim to the LANGUAGE used in the breastfeeding/formula debate. You didn’t find information on the “health risks” of formula feeding because they were all hidden in plain sight as the “benefits” of breastfeeding. As **Mtgman **said, the positives of breastmilk can logically be translated as the negatives of formula feeding.

And you’d be dead wrong. There are at least half a dozen threads, probably more, where I’ve offered education, support and commiseration to Doper women having breastmilk or breastfeeding issues, and at least two where I requested the same when I was having trouble. I challenge you to come up with a single example of where I’ve been anything but supportive of a mother’s choice, while doing what I can to answer questions and suggest solutions. I know for a fact that I’ve overused the term, “formula is not rat poison” and reassured Doper women and real life women that they’re not failures for supplementing or formula feeding. You don’t have to assume anything about how I act - after this many years on the same message board, my actions are here on the record.

No. I’ve been very clear about what I want to do: increase medical research and treatment of hypolactation, increase understanding of breastfeeding from both the theoretical and practical end of things and, most importantly, change the way we use language so that we’re not unintentionally sabotaging people looking for accurate and meaningful information about the risks of formula feeding to make an informed decision. I’ve never mentioned a law making breastfeeding mandatory, nor would I support one.

73

… you know, I just realized that the schools I attended were breastfeeding-friendly, who would’a thunk it. Every day had seven periods, with a half-hour break between 2nd and 3rd, and lunch between 4th and 5th.

Now I’m wondering if any of my teachers whose children couldn’t be brought in for them to breastfeed during the half-hour break kept her milk in the kitchen’s fridge, as that was the only fridge in the place.

74

I’ll repeat myself.

Give them credit for TRYING. Don’t judge the amount of effort they went through.

I don’t feel guilty - I’m ANGRY. And I own that feeling - its mine - I earned it being told I’d never be a “real mother” down at a LLL meeting. You aren’t making me feel angry - you are engaging in behavior that I feel OBLIGATED to get angry about because its hurtful and judgmental to me and other women. You, however, do breastfeeding as a cause no good at all when people are ANGRY at people who are breastfeeding advocates (I’m pro-breastfeeding, I chose to breastfeed my daughter - though it was never pleasant for either of us and a six month long battle). If UC really wants to have a conversation about this, instead of just telling the side of breastfeeding advocates and why she finds the derision offensive, she deserves the honesty of people telling her why we call them boob nazis and find them rude and invasive.

75

I don’t think you are giving her enough credit for doing her own research. I did the research ten years ago and came to the same conclusions. The studies were flawed. The results - at that time - not nearly dramatic enough. As you said - poorly funded - and the studies show that the research here is poorly funded - or did a decade ago - they were methodologically crap - the one on ear infections didn’t bother to pull a control group together that got breastmilk out of a bottle - so they had no idea if the infections were reduced by antibodies in breastmilk, or by the inadequate sterilization of bottles. The one on IQ didn’t take into account nearly enough confounding variables (IQ studies are almost always crap for that reason - there are too many confounding variables - particularly when talking about such a small delta that they got in the breastfeeding study).

Now, I haven’t looked at a breastfeeding study in a decade. But a decade ago, I looked at the data and didn’t find in conclusive or compelling. I chose to breastfeed my daughter anyway - since while the hurdle there was high, it turned out to be passable - but I didn’t get much farther with trying to induce lactation for my son or finding donor milk - because the data didn’t support (IMO) extraordinary actions (which is why I was in the medical library reading the studies).

76

One of my co-workers is well on her way to breastfeeding to one year (she’s a month away from it) and she has been working since the baby was 3 months old. It takes an accommodating workplace (an office with a door that locks certainly helps!) but it’s certainly something that can be done.

77

Minnesota is one of the states with a state law on providing a place for nursing mothers to pump at work.

Even there, that doesn’t necessarily mean its possible - I was never a great pumper - and when my daughter stopped nursing my milk supply when pumping almost immediately dried up. A girlfriend of mine, on the other hand, could hand express ample milk in a matter of minutes if necessary (and with a hospital pump had enough to donate). Like WhyNot, I ran the gamut of ideas trying to increase my milk supply - but some of us seem to be bred for meat and not dairy.

Nor does the regulation on providing a place necessarily create support…that’s a culture change. However, I work in a male dominated industry and I’ve never seen or felt any backlash against nursing mothers. When one of my coworkers was pumping, we readjusted all our standing meetings to work around her pumping schedule - and there wasn’t any grumbling about it - not even from the most Neanderthal of coworkers. I don’t doubt for a second that other people have had different experiences. I also don’t doubt for a second that perception of the same circumstances is often different, and its hard to objectively judge “supportive” or “undermining” behavior if its subtle.

78

Different studies say different.

Breastfeeding doesn’t increase intelligence:

http://children.webmd.com/news/20061003/breastfed-babies-arent-smarter

Breastfeeding increases intelligence:

79

I’m sorry, I guess I was feeling a little peckish last night. That wasn’t put very nicely. I think it’s an unfair thing to say, though. People’s feelings are influenced by all kinds of things, and it’s not realistic to say that someone just “makes themselves” feel a certain way.

The difference is that the person who decides to quit breastfeeding oftentime doesn’t think it’s the best decision for the baby. That’s not why they quit…they quit because it was too hard for them, or wasn’t working out for some other reason. THAT’S where the guilt comes in, because we can’t always do what we think is best for the baby. It’s just not that simple to think that a person is going to be 100% confident with every decision they make as a parent. Especially if you make the a decision that you aren’t totally happy with, and then people give you shit about it.

I’m angry for you. If there is anything that turns me off of breastfeeding advocates, it’s when they criticize adoption because it means a child will have to be fed on formula. What the hell do these people propose we do with these babies? If they aren’t in the home of an adopted parent, getting their bottle feedings, where are they going to be? Either in an orphange getting bottle-fed, or with their birth mother, probably getting bottle-fed as well. It is completely ridiculous to say that a woman who is so eager to love a child that she decides to adopt is somehow an unfit parent because she’s biologically unable to nurse it. That’s about the biggest perversion of the philosophy of “natural” parenting that I’ve ever heard.

80

However, it made sense given all they believed. They believe that its VERY IMPORTANT not to have an epidural because the baby won’t immediately nurse. And if the baby doesn’t immediately nurse, the bond between a mother and child is impacted (they did explain this all to me). They controlled their pregnancies to the upmost in order to optimize their child’s chances. They wear their kids (btw, so did my son’s foster mother, its a Korean thing), sleep with their kids (also a Korean thing).

I go into a room to ask about adoptive breastfeeding and inducing lactation (something I turned out to be better informed on before I got into the room than any of them). And I give them the following information. My child will be six months old when he arrives home. I know almost nothing about his birthmother except her age. I don’t know if she drank during pregnancy (though its rare in Korea for women to drink to excess) or what she ate (though the staple Korean diet is pretty healthy). I had no control over his birth. He wasn’t breastfed - moreover, Korean formula is different and unknown (at the time we were told most babies used a rice based formula), nor do I know what sort of bottle and nipple he used. He has had at least three caregivers between birth and arriving in my home. I am planning on continuing to work.

I suspect - in retrospect - I challenged their worldview enough that they got defensive. Not intentionally, I was telling them what I knew. But what I knew about my son - and what I was willing to accept - was not what they were willing to accept about their own mothering experience. The difference is, none of them ever had to make a choice about no child at all or giving up all the control for the pregnancy and first six months. And, honestly, not everyone is going to find giving up all that control acceptable - and people who demanded the most control are going to find giving it all up completely alien.

(We actually, in some ways, gained control. We were able to say we wanted a full term child without special needs. We were able to choose boy or girl. We were able to pick from a wide variety of adoption options and find the one that fit us best.)