Breastfeeding, "nipple nazis," and "helpful" advice

Perhaps it was inevitable - in this thread on parenting advice, the topic of breastfeeding came up. And with it the topics of evil La Leche League bitches, intolerant breastfeeding advocates accosting mothers in public, guilt, lack of cultural support, medical problems, the value of formula, and a boatload of related issues. I didn’t want to derail that thread, but it brought up some things I’d like to have a rational discussion about.

First, mentions of breastfeeding “nazis” always upset me. One person in that thread mentioned going to a LLL meeting and being told she shouldn’t adopt a baby because without breast milk it would be sick and have learning disabilities. Several people said lactivists told them they just weren’t trying hard enough (even in a case when physical abnormalities prevented sufficient supply).

Without a doubt, anyone who accosts a woman to critique her feeding method is being a total jerk. And as much as it pisses me off when such people attack breastfeeding mothers, it makes me even angrier when it’s a breastfeeding advocate bugging a bottle feeding mom - with friends like these, who needs enemies?

However, I would like to offer some information regarding the “not trying hard enough” advice that sometimes comes from lactation consultants and breastfeeding counselors. To understand where this comes from, you have to reflect that our culture is still pretty hostile to breastfeeding, and those of us trying to encourage breastfeeding see the same scenario quite often.

It’s the woman who says, “I tried to breastfeed, but I couldn’t,” and then it becomes clear that she did make her best effort, but was subtly undermined by her husband, other relatives, doctor, pediatrician, friends, neighbors, boss, and our culture in general. I think THIS is why breastfeeding support people will start digging around looking for things you can do differently, trying to correct bad information (often given by doctors), and offering ways to cope with difficulties, and maybe come across as saying, “You’re not trying hard enough.”

One of my motivations for starting this thread is to illuminate some examples of that subtle undermining. For instance, as **WhyNot **pointed out in the other thread, it is actually quite damaging to talk about breastfeeding as an optimal choice - an extra-special departure from the norm of formula feeding that is great if you can do it, but is not the standard. This is so insidious, because it *seems *like we’re supporting breastfeeding, saying how great it is, but really we’re reinforcing the idea that formula is the norm, and that breastfeeding is a difficult, rarefied practice.

Another aspect of this phenomenon is the idea that “breastfeeding is great, but if you can’t, formula is OK too.” There is so much in that simple, “supportive” statement that is dangerous. Breastfeeding as special and hard? Check. Injecting doubt? Check. Making it seem that many women can’t breastfeed? Check. Dismissal of the risks of formula? Check. And often this statement is made by a doctor or hospital, as they hand you a free sample of formula. Combine this with ignorance of the fact that milk supply is demand-driven, and you’ve got a recipe for an “Oh, my milk just dried up” situation, where the mom gives one bottle of formula, loses breast stimulation, makes less milk, gets worried the baby isn’t getting enough, gives more formula, makes less milk, and so on.

This is so incredibly frustrating for breastfeeding counselors, it’s not hard to see why some can get a little overzealous in encouraging mothers to avoid formula and take action to make breastfeeding work. I do think that lactation support people should try to be sensitive, and I have no wish to lay guilt on someone who is trying and not getting the support she needs. But I hope my story above makes it easier to outsiders to understand why it’s sometimes hard not to let the anger and frustration leak out a bit.

This is getting long, so I’ll just wrap it up and let further issues surface during discussion.

Not at all, sorry. My wife and I have had three kids, aged 7, 2 and 1. She tried to breastfeed each one and with each one had some highs and lows. The absolute last thing she needed while still in the hospital was the local boob nazi giving her attitude because she wasn’t “trying hard enough”. Of course they never pulled that kind of shit when I or her mom was there, just when she was alone. How many times did she cry because she wouldn’t produce milk, or the baby wouldn’t latch on. All I could do was help her get though it. My supportive words? “You do what works for you and the baby. I’ll support you either way.” She was convinced through the LLL propaganda to think that if it wasn’t working it was HER fault because she wasn’t doing something right.

My kids were breast fed for +/-6 weeks through the use of a pump and even that wasn’t good enough for the “lactation specialist,” as though the pump somehow wasn’t as good as the real thing. So we decided, fuck 'em all. It’s nobody’s business what I or my kids eat, certainly not a bunch of breast-obsessed wanna be do-gooders.

I hope my story helps others to understand why those for whom breast feeding really doesn’t work, don’t restrain from letting their anger out at others of different opinion.

I’m not a mother, though I will be in January and I hope to breastfeed.

Do La Leche and other breastfeeding advocates pressure businesses to accommodate breastfeeding employees? According to the research I’ve found, about 60% percent of U.S. mothers are back in the workforce by the time their babies are 9 months old. How many employers accommodate these mothers (by providing breaks in order to pump, a private space in which to do so, and a refrigerated space to store expressed milk)? Most new mothers, who may already be concerned about the effect of motherhood on their careers, probably don’t have the time, energy or clout to challenge their employers on this. Heck, I work at a family-friendly university, and I’m concerned that there’s not a place for me to pump in my building besides the restroom. (Our offices all have glass doors.)

If breastfeeding advocates only encourage and pressure mothers without trying to make society in general more accommodating of breastfeeding, then they’re not going to succeed. It seems like the onus is put on the individual woman to try harder rather than on our culture to change how it views breastfeeding. That’s very frustrating.

The problem here is that you’re talking about subtly contradictory messages in the “breast is optimal” position, when those complaining about “boob nazis” have much more vivid issues. A friend tried for two months to breastfeed her daughter while she had mastitis: the baby wouldn’t latch, so she pumped, which was so painful that it made her cry, and the milk came out pink because of blood in it. None of this dissuaded the nurses and doctors who gave the standard “you’re not trying hard enough line.” This, on top of severe (diagnosed) post partum depression.

Look at it this way: there are three groups. There are those who breastfeed unproblematically; those who bottle feed due to convenience, preconceived social notions about it, or some weird aversion to the idea; and those who try and fail due to difficulties. Your points relate well to the second group, who have no reason not to (at least try to) breastfeed, but for a lot of misinformation in their heads. But the LLL has become so strident and alienating with the third group, those with real difficulties, that the subtleties you describe are lost beneath a flood of very justified rejection of boob nazis who make new mothers feel bad about their parenting skills. The penalty for pushing a new mother into the camp of the “boob nazis are evil” is very high. It’s counterproductive.

I think “boob is best” is a good strategy that over time will work to increase social acceptance of breastfeeding and make it the first choice. But the LLL would be better served by being more accomodating of difficulties, and more accepting of formula as an alternative.

There was a discussion along these lines of subtle undermining on another board I drop in on. The poster there asked “What would happen if we changed the wording in advertisements for formula?” Assuming breast milk as the biological norm the statement “Breastfeeding increases immunity” would equal “Formula reduces immunity”. “Breastfeeding raises IQ” = “Formula reduces IQ”. “Breasfeeding reduces the risk of SIDS” = “Formula increases the risk of SIDS”.

It turned into a total ad hominem flame-fest and was, IIRC, closed and removed. But those are the kinds of subtle switches of wording that might make someone considering formula feeding for conveniece to look a little harder at the scientific evidence that breastfeeding is normal and formula is a sub-par artificial replacement, not a close equivalent. If we could get that to click in peoples’ minds, maybe we’d have doctors writing prescriptions for donated milk that would be covered by insurance, like WhyNot dreams.

Ah, to dream.

And if a mom has mastitis for two months, I hope she was given antibiotics! I’ve had it twice for only a week or so and it’s miserable.

Our example made me dislike the whole shebang of breast feeding advocates, lactation consultants, LLL - the lot.

Our kid would not latch and my wife could not provide sufficient milk. No doubt those two are related.

We tried, well, everything. We had consultants in the hospital. We hired a consultant to visit us at home (at considerable expense). We had a post-partum doula. We rented a pump. My wife took lactation-enhancing drugs. She took herbal supplements, drank small amounts of beer, changed her diet. I fed the baby with a little tube taped to my pinkie, filled with pumped milk, to teach him to suckle. My wife pumped until she literally cried with pain. We woke up every two hours to get him to feed. We dutifully filled out those charts as you are supposed to - dry diaper, wet diaper, feeding.

Didn’t work.

Meanwhile, we were being told by all of these folks we were consulting and hiring that it was impossible for breast feeding to “not work”. So it must be that we were “doing it wrong”; we weren’t trying hard enough! What was needed, of course, was more: more consultants, more drugs, more effort, and all would be well. All would be bliss and natural motherhood.

Of course as the “husband” I was no doubt “subtly undermining” the noble effort. Though for the life of me I do not know exactly how.

Anyway, I finally had enough when one of these consultant types said something that sounded to me awfully like that, although the baby wasn’t thriving or gaining weight, it was better than he risk dying of starvation - even a small risk - than that he get formula; because maybe a little more effort and it would “all come together” and we would be off to a wonderful breast-feeding experience.

There was no risk of that naturally (with the number of medical personnel we had around, there was no real risk), but in my mind I was thinking “lady, you are crazy. You have lost sight of the wood for the trees. The point is not to breast-feed, the point is a healthy, thriving baby. Our baby”.

I was too shell-shocked by that point to risk an outburst, but on talking it over with my wife I realized we had been taken in by people who were activists with a capital-C cause; they actually cared more for their ideology than for us or our baby. We realized we had to do what was right for us and could not rely on these people for help or advice.

In the event, the kid never did latch properly; my wife pumped for half a year, supplementing with formula; the kid is a fine, healthy and happy child.

But if I never see a “lactivist” again it will be too soon.

But you’re forgetting the fourth group - those who try, have difficulties, and receive the support and information to overcome and keep nursing! That’s the key - how can we increase that group, but not be perceived as obnoxious?

FWIW, I’m a member of LLL (I don’t speak for them, but I do have a lot of experience seeing them work), and I have never EVER seen a leader tell someone they weren’t trying hard enough.* Is it possible that leaders are trying to offer support and ideas for overcoming difficulties, and moms are perceiving this as saying, “You’re not trying hard enough?” I agree it is an important consideration. Although, weirdly enough LLL recently commissioned a study on how it’s perceived, fearing the “vicious harpy” image, and found that mostly people have no idea what LLL is, rather than having a negative image.

As for lobbying employers, LLL is designed as a mother-to-mother support and information group. NABA does some more of the advocacy stuff, but honestly I think there is too little money behind breastfeeding for us to get a lot accomplished right now. Hopefully as the culture changes, through the actions and choices of individuals, the power of the breastfeeding lobby will increase, and things will get easier for employed mothers.
*Two leaders with my group have fed their kids formula - one switched permanently to it, the other used it for a while and went back to exclusive bf. The one who switched totally was a member at the time, and her leader asked her to keep coming to meetings. No judgments, no obnoxious behavior. This is much more in line with the general treatment I see mothers get at meetings. YMMV of course.


Oh, and funnily enough, my baby has a cold and is needing me a lot today, so I may not be able to keep up with this thread as much as I’d like to. Please bear with me.

Do people not realize that it’s not realistic in some circumstances? If the mother is a teacher and goes back to work after her 12 week FMLA leave, what then? Is it better to switch to a bottle at 3 months or just start on one? There’s no way a teacher can schedule pumping time every 2-4 hrs. It’s just not realistic. I’d also like to ask another question: What’s wrong with formula?

My earlier point, in much shorter form, was that the costs of creating another “evil boob nazi” anecdote far outweigh the costs that the OP outlines of allowing subtly contradictory messages to flow from the “breast is best” position. In other words, it would be better to let a mother having difficulties switch to formula than to create another horror story.

Your suggestion of denigrating formula instead of praising breast milk works the same way. It reinforces the boob nazi image. Look at it this way: a new mother is having difficulty feeding, and wants to try formula. Your advertising tells her that she’s lowering the kids IQ, raising the risk of SIDS, and reduces immunity. A woman already struggling with breastfeeding is put in the position of choosing to harm her child in order to feed it properly. That’s a recipe for another “evil boob nazi” story to make the rounds.

Every one of these stories is a far greater setback for the cause of breastfeeding than not fighting the switch to formula.

I’m not sure how 1+1 equals two in this situation. You mention that a flame war was started by the proposal of the marketing changes denigrating formula users (Which is what those messages clearly do by the way.) It got so bad that the thread was closed and deleted, yet you expect the public outside of the internet to react differently?

For most people anecdotal information trumps someone in a white coat proclaiming the opposite. Whether right or wrong, that’s life. Many of us born in the '60s were not breast fed, somehow, we managed to suffer on through life. To claim that if I was breast fed as an infant that I wouldn’t have had terrible ear problems as a youth is a stretch. I can look to several couples now that either are or are not breast feeding who have kids with similar problems. FWIW I have a documented IQ of 136. If I lost a few points because mom didn’t breast feed me, I think I can forgive her.

Considering my health problems as a kid, the data assumes that my own children, if not breast fed would have similar health problems. The problem is however, they don’t! I currently take care of six ears under the age of eight. We have had a total of one ear ache, and no tubes, to date. Perhaps it was the six weeks of boob juice that got them to where they are today. Too bad LLL and the other lactivists contend that six weeks is not good enough.

I cannot imagine what you went through - to say that your anger and disillusionment is understandable is the understatement of the year. The sicko who suggested a risk of starvation is better than formula leaves me speechless.

Again, I don’t know about individual LCs and so forth, but I can say that LLL has one rule, first and foremost: The baby gets fed. If you encountered LLL leaders suggesting otherwise, they were not adhering to what the organization advocates.

It’s so strange - I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a good hospital LC. They either tell people with simple problems just to switch to formula (or the LC doesn’t show up to help at all), or they seem to be insane crusaders ignoring the needs of the individuals in front of them in favor of the Great Breastfeeding Cause, given the stories I’ve read here.

Well, one never hears the good stories. 10 people eat at a restaurant and have a nice meal and they don’t tell anyone. One person has a bad experience and they tell everyone they know. That is humanity for you. add in the emotions involved with birth, the frustrations involved with breastfeeding, and the fact that both stories in this thread have come from the father’s perspective, and it becomes understandable.

By being exceptionally gentle with those having trouble, and by avoiding suggestions like Averie outlines to stigmatize formula feeding.

Granted, a lot of this is out of your control. I suspect a great deal of the trauma undergone by new mothers who get the “you’re not trying hard enough” line has to do with medical professionals who aren’t that militant about “breast is best”, but don’t sufficiently perceive the difficulties a new mother is having (or discount her complaints too much). My friend suffered a lot every day when trying to breastfeed; I’m pretty sure that the doctors and nurses she saw simply didn’t perceive the depth of her issues and her anger at them failing to be addressed.

There also seems to be a lack of options for mothers having difficulty. All the horror stories I hear are about women have a hard, painful time, and getting “just keep trying” as a response. Are there no treatments for these issues? Exercises? Why does it seem like the standard “boob nazi” experience is someone who says “if it’s not working it’s because you’re not trying hard enough”? Surely there must be more than encouragement and information to offer mothers having difficulties.

Heh, my wife was if anything more unhappy than I - after all, it wasn’t my breasts in that pumping machine, or my physical abilities directly in issue! :wink:

I see what you’re saying, but right now it seems that La Leche is asking individuals to take on all of the burdens and risks of lobbying employers. Well-paid, well-respected white-collar workers might be able to go to their employers and request accommodations that could be made without much difficulty. But what about teachers, as spazattak points out? Assembly-line workers? Coffeeshop baristas? Retail workers? Waitresses? Most mothers in the U.S. are employed, and if La Leche and other advocacy groups want to bring about real change, they need to realize that and act accordingly.

Rather than denigrate (a word used by two unique posters by the way…) formula users, I would suggest that LLL and the others promote more pre-birth education. Tell the moms that it isn’t an event inspred by the heavens, the goddess, mother nature, etc. It’s feeding the baby, nothing more, nothing less. Let them know that it may not work, no matter what hoops are jumped through, no matter what techniques are involved. For some it just aint gonna happen AND THATS OK!

For each of our kids, we attended the classes that all pregnant folks go to. The one thing common was the hype of breast feeding to unobtainable grandeur and the denigration (there is that word again) of formula, formula users, and formula manufacturers. Maybe it was a local thing. I bet as this thread plays out, it will turn out to be more than the local LLL. Maybe if breastfeeding was played down just a bit, a lot of the emotion discussed already, would never be an issue…

Many people do not understand the desire and drive of LLL. “Why do they give a rip what my baby eats?” Frankly, I’m not too sure of it either.

Hear, hear!

Just about everyone I know has been bottle-fed, including my own children, and we all have the standard cross-section of idiots, health problems, etc.

So, what is wrong with formula? For those who say it effects IQ, bonding…

(I’ve never said this before, I’m kinda’ nervous…)

Cite?

:slight_smile:

I see what you’re saying. If it wasn’t a loaded issue - if it was like whether you prefer Carter’s or Gymboree baby clothes or something - it would be easier on everyone. However, my problem with playing down breastfeeding is that just getting to where we are, with only 21% of babies breastfeeding to 12 months, has taken a huge amount of playing UP, and the formula companies would be only too happy to step in to any advocacy vacuum on infant feeding methods.

As for LLL giving a rip, we do in a general sense. However, LLL only talks to people who come to meetings - if you come and want information and support, that’s what they’re there for. If you don’t want to hear about breastfeeding, LLL isn’t going to knock on your door and solicit you or something.

Aww jeez, you just opened the flood gates with that question. :slight_smile:

Everyone knows that Gymboree clothes are cuter, for girls anyway… :wink:
This however:

Is advocacy which is in direct contrast to this approach:

Perhaps our local chapter is different. There are LLL bilboards, radio and tv spots, and they always have prominent displays at the “mom events.” They are a borderline “in your face” org, locally anyway. My wife made the mistake of checking off a box requesting more information about breast feeding.

Who knew that meant having a home visit? She was too polite to say no I guess.