Britney Spears owes me ten bucks--and a blank morality check.

[doreen]

[quote]
What I’m getting at is that we focus so much on a persons age, that a man like me, with a 21 year old girld friend would be stigmatised. Her freinds would shun her, my friends would shun me. Her parents would probably not be very happy about it. We would get a lot of “so that’s your dad”-comments.{/quote]

I don’t know that the stigma would be because it was thought to be wrong. I’m 38. I know a few 18-20 year old guys. Some of them look good,and that’s about it.Can’t have more than a five minute conversation with them about anything other than bowling (that’s where I know them from) And that’s part of the reason for “shunning”. Take a guy I know around my age, with a 19 year -old girlfriend. His friends, who are about his age, aren’t thrilled about hanging out with them, not because there’s something wrong or immoral about it, but simply because we have nothing in common with her. She’s a nice enough girl,but she has far more in common with my 13 year old daughter than with me. She’s thinking about what classes to register for next semester, and we’re wondering when we’ll be able to afford to retire. I’m sure her friends feel the same, and I’m sure each half of the couple feels somewhat out of place when with the other’s friends,

[erislover]

*Originally posted by jinwicked *
**I guess I shouldn’t tell her (?) about my outfit where I dress up to look like a naughty little 17 y.o. Catholic schoolgirl. **

Well, goshdarnit, somebody needs to hear about this.

[Michael_Ellis]

*Originally posted by erislover *
**Well, goshdarnit, somebody needs to hear about this. **

Agreed. Agreed.

[Tuckerfan]

*Originally posted by erislover *
**Well, goshdarnit, somebody needs to hear about this. **

Hear, hell! I want pictures! 8 X 10 glossies! I need them for, uh, research! Yeah! Yeah! Research! Research! That’s what it is!

Oh, and catsix, you’re just not hanging out with the right 25 year old guys. Or, you could move up a few years and hang out with old geezers (I’m 33) like myself, who’d take a notion to you, I’m sure.

[Larry_Mudd]

Oh yeah, catsix – I’ve only pursued two people who were under 25 , since I was 14. And no-one under thirty since I turned 20 or so. My last SO was a nice even 20 years older. After reading John Irving’s A Widow for One Year, I suppose I oughta start looking more closely at folks closer to my own age…

I don’t think I’m that much of an anomoly, and judging from most couples I see, most people tend to stick to people in their own age groups. Helps with that whole communication thing, most of the time. (I think a big part of the reason I got hung up on older women was that I was an unusual teen. My sister taught me to read when I was three, and by high-school I was reading college-level stuff. The gum-chewers my age didn’t hold any appeal for me, and by all accounts I was a weirdo, anyway, and completely out-of-touch with the teen zeitgeist. (Zitgeist?) After that, it was just a habit, I guess.)

[tiny_ham]

Ohhhhh Larry speaks GERRMAAAN

j

[Cubsfan]

*Originally posted by jjimm *
**Pssst… acicadasings, ‘lust’ isn’t like a faucet that can be turned on or off… Whether you find it revolting or not, the majority of straight men can’t help finding scantily-clad post-pubescent women of all ages attractive. sofa is just being more honest than most about the discomfort this causes. **

Why does he feel the need to share this feeling with other adults? If he was standing outside of a middle school, because post pubescent girls are in middle school as well, and was saying how he wishes he could get his fuck on with some of these fine young hunnies how would that make you feel?

Some feelings are best kept to yourself. I have a little girl myself and the thought of some POS my age talking to his buddies about how rough it is not being able to fuck my daughter makes me want to beat some old man ass.

I agree with acicadasings for the most part.

[red_dragon60]

I think we have reached the point where I say that guys wanna put their num-num in girls who look youthful because they look like they would be able to healthily carry a child. It’s hardwired in us. We want to spread our naughty seed, and the best recievers are ones who look young and healthy, with um, huge tracts of land. Guys wanna propagate the world with little versions of themselves. Good candidates for the incubation just happen to be young.

And jarbaby? shadenfreude. Now swoon!

[Dr.Lao]

*Originally posted by Stinkpalm *
Why does he feel the need to share this feeling with other adults?

Because it was funny.

[acicadasings]

*Originally posted by The Gaspode *
When I said "Why is it always wrong… I wasn’t meaning the law or “two mature consenting adults.” I was refering to the big unknown, always to blame: Society. That’s you and me and everybody else. In two years, you’ll be able to vote, and can then help make decisions in this society.
But what I was going for was rather - how do we come up with these boundries? It’s my impression that age of consent is pretty much 18 in most of the U.S. In Sweden it’s 15. Clearly, these two boundries differ quite a lot. Three years is a lot at that age. I have the perspective to say that I matured as much between 15 and 18, as I did between 11 and 14, at least mentally.
Sweden is a small country, but it’s still part of the ‘Western Society’. Why that big a diference? The legislators in the respective country didn’t just come up with an arbitrary line. It’s certainly not science. It stands to reason (I hate using that phrase, but I don’t have a cite), that it’s the morality of that particular country that dictates what the legislators do.

Well, that’s an entirely different story. I don’t know if I could really give a particularly complex or informed answer. I’m no sociologist and don’t know enough about Sweden to safely say WHY the age of consent is just fifteen there, and eighteen in the US. It is indeed the morality of the country that affects these boundaries. Perhaps the religious right has more control or more of a voice in somewhere like America, which is why the age of consent is so much higher. Here in the UK, Tony Blair recently spoke of lowering the age of consent to 14, because of the growing number of underage pregnancies. Obviously, if a significant percentage of these pregnancies were happening between the ages of 14 and 16 (the current age of consent), the statistics would be greatly improved simply by making what is ‘underage’ a couple of years younger. Perhaps Sweden was influenced by practicalities like this when making their laws. Anyway, there are obviously lots of factors to be considered. I don’t know enough history about either of the countries in question to give a good answer for this.

**And that brings me back to my point. This has nothing, what so ever, to do with ‘coming of age’, lewd old men or age of consent. It does have something to do with our collective morality and unless we can figure out the mechanisms of that morality, my questions still stands and I repeat it:

Why is it always ‘wrong’ for a man over a certain age to have sexual desires for a woman of another age?

Of course, I use the word ‘woman’, meaning physically and sexually mature. Kids don’t even factor into this.

Is it the age gap? Why do we condemn that? You put unorthodox within “-”, but still, even for you to bring it up, means that you see that society would condemn this in some ways, albeit not strongly enough to send the older party to jail or therapy.

I’m still not talking about the law. I’m talking about all of us. I’m not saying there should be a board where R.Kelly can take his latest SO and get a court order that he’s allowed to screw her (even though it seems he’s being doing just that, after the deed).
What I’m getting at is that we focus so much on a persons age, that a man like me, with a 21 year old girld friend would be stigmatised. Her freinds would shun her, my friends would shun me. Her parents would probably not be very happy about it. We would get a lot of “so that’s your dad”-comments.

Clearly, this is something shared in both European and American cultures. It has nothing to do with a legal boundry. But it certainly is pertinent to this thread. Your strong reaction, and some other posters guilt show us that older man - younger (sexually mature) girl is wrong. If we’re fighting ignorance here, I want to know why we think so, 'cause I don’t have a clue. **

I don’t know why it’s wrong. It certainly wasn’t once; accepted practice was for much older men, with established reputations and steady jobs, to pick out the prettiest and youngest girls to marry. Maybe it’s a simple case of jealousy – the ones most vocal about their ‘moral outrage’ will probably be adults themselves. Maybe they wouldn’t be quite so outraged if they were the ones who’d managed to seduce a perky young thing. Perhaps, when the age gaps are at their most extreme, the reaction is a paternal/maternal one. When the age gap is 20 years or higher, there’ll be plenty of parents among the crowd dubious of your intentions. They can’t help but put ‘their little girl’ in the place of the person you’re dating. Silly, but emotional reactions often are pretty irrational. It’s difficult for me to try and explain this way of thinking because I’m not inclined to it (when everything’s legal, and nothing abusive is going on, I couldn’t care less what two adults do) myself.

My strong reaction did not have what went on between two adults, so I’m not REALLY qualified to be explaining this. My reaction had what went on between a full-grown man and a still developing (mentally, emotionally, and physically) child. I’d be very interested to hear what others have to say, though.

Aaaahhh. Now it’s getting interesting. My point was of course that it’s down to the individual. I don’t know what’s your poison in men, I just threw in a couple of Hollywood hunks, that seems to get womens panties to gravitate towards the ankles, without interference of men.
But when you say that “a man that old interested in something as young as me,” you make the same mistake, that I’m trying to get to the bottom of: You make your own age your foremost characteristic. You seem smart. I get turned on by smart girls. preferably they should be a bit of a bitch too. Now, for the sake of argument, if you should find me attractive (I’m fa, very far, from being Mr. Pitt), And I should find you interesting, and we didn’t know our respective ages. I can pass for 32, you can prolly pass for 20. Should the age factor - not legality or morality of society - stop us from jumping to bed?

I was speaking on a personal level. I like to have some intellectual or emotional connection with the person I’m sleeping with, even if I’m not looking for a ‘proper’ relationship. While there some guys approaching 40 who would see something other than a taut young body in a sixteen year old, and love them, and find them interesting, I doubt there are many. I don’t consider myself on an intellectual par with full-grown adults, partly due to my age, and this is why I took it in to consideration, and why I’d be somewhat dubious of the motives of someone that much older trying to get me into bed. The age factor in and of itself of is no importance once I get to legal age, but I believe that my youth does determine part of who I am. If I could have a good conversation with you, and you wouldn’t mind helping me with my homework, I wouldn’t let the simple fact of my age stop us from jumping into bed. Sorry I didn’t make that clearer before – I’m not sure if I’m even doing a better job now – but I was pretty tired when I was finishing up those posts last night.

[acicadasings]

*Originally posted by jarbabyj *
But is it POSSIBLE, cicada…just POSSIBLE that some of us know what we’re talking about as well?

Perfectly possible. I shared my thoughts to throw in a different point of view to the one previously most frequently expressed, and I certainly expected to have disagreement and debate. I wanted to learn from that and see other people’s points of view, and I know not everything is as black and white as I may have came across as believing. I did simplify certain points for the sake of argument.

**What you’re basically doing, is being a thought cop. And I doubt anyone wants that. **

That’s not what I wanted either. I did try to stress that while thoughts can’t be helped, the manner in which they are expressed certainly can be.

Originally posted by RTFirefly
Well, I got back here kinda late, but I notice that my name’s been taken in vain. I guess the question, cicada, is: do I still have some explaining to do, in your opinion, or have the others adequately covered the ground?

I’m not sure if there’s much more to be said. There have been plenty of people to ‘defend’ your position and a lot has been said in ‘favour’ of being attracted to teens. I think we’d just be going over the same things if we continued with the bulk of this.

Hope I covered everything new. Again, very interesting talking with you all.

[Sofa_King]

Ohhhh… Shit.

Look, I unloaded that Dial-O-Matic at the city dump like three days ago. I wrote it because I felt… oogy as hell, and I explored that ooginess as far as I cared to go.

But I had to stop at page two of this thread, 'cause shit is just getting ugly. I’m sorry if I say something which further offends everyone. No, fuck that, I’m not sorry at all.

I told you what happened, and what I thought, and what I did, and what I absolutely cannot do–with remarkable veracity, I might add. As I said, it’s vaguely criminal–guilty thoughts which make me feel less of a man. But fuckin’ A if I didn’t have them.

It’s one of those safety alarms our society has created. Counter-instinctual. I confronted an anomalous situation, and goddammit I overcame it without resorting to some metaphor about dragging someone by the hair into my cave.

And I shared it with all of you, because it is sick and wrong, and above all, honest. If you don’t like that, piss up a rope, because I can’t be a goddamned priest and I don’t aspire to be one.

Except, of course, in my capacity as a reverend in the Universal Life Church, which I take very seriously indeed.

[Larry_Mudd]

Sofa, we all know confession is good for the soul, and when you do it, it’s good for a larf, too.

You should upgrade that Universal Life Church ticket of yours and become an ordained minister with the Church of the Subgenius. We’re a lot more fun.

I’m Pope. You can be too. That whole hierarchy thing is for heathen chumps.

[Charlie_Tan]

If I could have a good conversation with you, and you wouldn’t mind helping me with my homework, I wouldn’t let the simple fact of my age stop us from jumping into bed.

There are flights from Stanstead to Stockholm for £25. I’ll be glad to help with your homework

Seriously, I think it’s all to do with me working as a journalist for many years. Journalism is about simplyfying and generalising, for the sake of making the news cemprehensable by the largest number of people possible.
For myself, I get more and more sick of sterotypes. One that I find disturbing is that of how we judge people based on their ages. doreen went into this when she answered me. Having things in common, carrying on conversations ASF.
But age is certainly no guarantee for maturity and wisdom. And youth is no excuse for stupidity. I know 20-25 year old men and women who’re showing a lot more maturity, and is a lot more fun to hang with, than some people my age.

My lengthy posts here is about the stereotypes and why we have them.

[Shodan]

Dear acicadasings -

Welcome to the SDMB. You present yourself very well, especially for a sixteen year old. Like it or not, I think you may be learning something.

Have you ever wondered why some threads just sit there, and others take off for pages and pages? Several reasons, but one major one being that the OP resonates with a lot of people.

Several posters here can start threads that do that. Stoid is one, Esprix is another, and several others who posted here also have the gift.

What you have been given by the OP is an insight into the adult, male mind. The reason this thread is going on for three pages is not simply because people are reacting to what you had to say, but because the OP said things that strike a nerve in normal, rational men who would never lay a finger on a pre-pubescent girl or an adolescent woman but who still receive signals from Mr. Happy at the sight of the Britney wanna-bes in their tight little outfits.

As Larry Miller says,

“If women knew a tenth of what was going on in our heads, they would never stop slapping us.”

We think like this all the time, and about all kinds of women - our wives, our co-workers, women we see on the streets, women we see in the movies, women who post on the SDMB (hi, jarbabyj!) - and even our daughter’s friends.

This does not imply that we are all potential rapists and child molestors. It implies that we are male. It is not the same thing.

We can’t help it, and we usually keep quiet about it because many women don’t like it.

“No, dear, you are the only woman for me” is a phrase Mrs. Shodan needs to hear from time to time, and in actual fact she is. But being on a diet doesn’t mean you can’t look at the menu. And we do - it’s in our hard wiring.

The heart has reasons the mind knows not of - and parts further south have other reasons still. It is what happens between the urge and the action that makes us civilized, or moral, or rapists and murderers.

But the urge remains, even for those of us of a Certain Age.

Again, welcome, and please post again.

Regards,
Shodan

[doreen]

originally posted by The Gaspode
One that I find disturbing is that of how we judge people based on their ages. doreen went into this when she answered me. Having things in common, carrying on conversations ASF.
But age is certainly no guarantee for maturity and wisdom. And youth is no excuse for stupidity. I know 20-25 year old men and women who’re showing a lot more maturity, and is a lot more fun to hang with, than some people my age.

I don’t think I was clear enough. I was talking about people avoiding a couple with a large age difference ,not so much * because* of the age difference,but because of things associated with the age difference. And I didn’t even mention maturity or wisdom. Certainly my friend could have found the rare 19 year-old who’s already planning for her retirement, owns or is planning to buy a house or coop, has an adult sort of job rather than a college student sort of job ,gets the references we make ( Once three of us showed up to bowl in baseball jerseys that said “Who” ,“What” and “I don’t know” on the back. Most of the older people got it. None of the under 20 year olds got it. When we explained it, they had never even heard of Abbott and Costello), etc. Perhaps we’d enjoy hanging out with such a 19 year old.And he easily could have ended up with a 36 year old who had nothing in common with the rest of us. We wouldn’t enjoy hanging out with her, either

[Charlie_Tan]

doreen I’m sorry, but your last post makes it even clearer for me that you’re falling for the age stereotype. I’m 41. I don’t have a pension plan, own a house or even a car. I basically live the same carefree, no responsability type life I did when I was 25. You might say that I’m acting immaturely. Hopefully my choices in life do not reflect on my mental maturity.

I still want to judge a person on her/his merits, not age. If those merits for you is having plans for retirement, being a soccer mom, having a mortgage or whatever, and if you think that shows that it’s a person you can relate to, then fine. That’s your choice.

For myself, I prefer other things in people I choose to hang around with. My best girl friend, not girlfriend, is 15 years my junior. Her insight, maturity, compassion and intergrity makes her be a very good friend. OK, so when I went to college, she was just starting school. Some of my references are totally lost on her. Even so, I prefer to hit the town for drinks with her, instead of some of the people I grew up with, even though I share references with them. Basically becuase to me, she’s a more interesting person. Age doesn’t figure in this, her personality does.

[doreen]

doreen I’m sorry, but your last post makes it even clearer for me that you’re falling for the age stereotype. I’m 41. I don’t have a pension plan, own a house or even a car. I basically live the same carefree, no responsability type life I did when I was 25. You might say that I’m acting immaturely. Hopefully my choices in life do not reflect on my mental maturity.

I think you’re falling for a stereotype, the one that goes "if people avoid a couple of different ages, it must be because they think it’s wrong, or that all 19 year olds are immature. There couldn’t possibly be another reason ". Certainly there might be a 19 year old that I have much in common with, and I know a number of 40 year olds that I have nothing in common with. I don’t hang out with those 40 year olds. I tend not to hang out with people with whom I can’t have a conversation, whether it’s because our experiences are too different, our interests are too different, or our tastes are too different. You’re making the mistake of thinking that if people “shun” a couple that’s far apart in age, it must be because of the age, that if my friends 19 year old girlfriend was exactly the same person, only 38 years old, we’d love to hang out with her.I’m saying that, in fact, we don’t love to hang out with her because of who she is, we wouldn’t have much in common with her even if she was 38, and that simply because it’s less likely (but not impossible) for a 19 year old to fit in with a late thiries to early forties group and the age difference is the most obvious one, doesn’t mean the age itself has to do with it. Think of it this way. You said you live a carefree ,no responsibility life. That’s a very different life than the ones me and my friends lead. We might not enjoy hanging out with you much either ( or you with us- as I said in my first post, it goes both ways ) But you wouldn’t assume it was because of your age. I’m not talking at all about judging a person, or their merits or maturity. There are plenty of people who I respect, but wouldn’t hang out with.

[butter_pie]

*Originally posted by Tuckerfan *
**Hear, hell! I want pictures! 8 X 10 glossies! I need them for, uh, research! Yeah! Yeah! Research! Research! That’s what it is! **

If I can drag my photographer away from studying for his bar exam long enough, you may get your wish…

[acicadasings]

*Originally posted by The Gaspode *
**I still want to judge a person on her/his merits, not age. If those merits for you is having plans for retirement, being a soccer mom, having a mortgage or whatever, and if you think that shows that it’s a person you can relate to, then fine. That’s your choice.

For myself, I prefer other things in people I choose to hang around with. My best girl friend, not girlfriend, is 15 years my junior. Her insight, maturity, compassion and intergrity makes her be a very good friend. OK, so when I went to college, she was just starting school. Some of my references are totally lost on her. Even so, I prefer to hit the town for drinks with her, instead of some of the people I grew up with, even though I share references with them. Basically becuase to me, she’s a more interesting person. Age doesn’t figure in this, her personality does. **

I think we all want to be able to judge every person by his or her merits – intelligence, maturity, compassion – rather than an arbitrary factor such as age (we’re discussing people over the legal age alone, I hope). However, it’s not always that simple. There are a lot of people in this world, and stereotypes based on age are generally there for a reason. MOST significantly younger people are going to be interested in different things than you are. MOST people your age have far more responsibilities, things tying them to their ‘adulthood,’ things that make it difficult to relate to be able to understand and enjoy the company of a very young person on a deep level. Doreen is basing what she said on personal experience – she doesn’t have a lot in common with the average ‘young adult.’ This isn’t really stereotyping, as such. She’s experienced enough to safely say that she doesn’t tend to relate well to young people. She’s experienced enough to say that she enjoys the company of friends her own age, as a general rule. She hasn’t ruled out the possibility of friendship with someone significantly younger, she realises there ARE exceptions to what she considers common, and I believe, when making a statement as broad as hers, it’s necessary to use certain generalisations for effect, and to save time.

Not many people have the time to judge EVERY SINGLE PERSON that comes their way on merit alone. I’m sure you are guilty of using generalisations yourself sometimes, be it based on financial status, the job they’re in, what animals they like – I don’t know. Consciously or not, we all do it occasionally, to some extent. Importantly, Doreen has accepted there ARE younger people she can, and has been friendly with, and that she would never judge somebody simply because how of old they are; she was merely stating that she tends to have less in common with people considerably younger than her, which is perfectly reasonable and understandable.

There are things commonly associated with certain ages, and people make initial judgments based on these things, like it or not. For instance, somebody in their 40s is quite likely to have a family, a steady job, a house, car, and other such responsibilities. A person in their 40s who goes out clubbing all week, dresses like a teenager, and chooses to sleep with people half their age would be considered the exception. Assuming certain things about somebody due to their age is no different to assuming things about someone for the way they dress, the size they are, the way their voice sounds. We all do it sometimes, using personal experience and various other means to create a tentative first impression of somebody. Intelligent people, like yourself, will work on seeing past those first vague ideas, and hopefully find something more interesting underneath. Most people will not dismiss somebody as being ‘too young’ without learning at least little about them first.