Welcome to adulthood. Men will find you sexually desirable. The Straight Dope has again fulfull its function and eradicated a little of your ignorance.
And to continue on the ignorance eradication course: Thinking someone desirable does not indicate a lack of respect. Finding someone sexy does not equate to a lack of decency. It is the responsibility of adults to make sure that adolescents have a safe and secure environment while they are discovering and experimenting with this newfound power that came with those hooters. It is not the adult’s responsibility to sheild them from reality. It is their responsibility to prepare them for reality. The reality is that most men find young women desirable.
Furthermore, life aint fair. Adults discuss sex all the time. Sometimes we laugh, because society makes some of our own natural impulses seem ridiculous. Try not to get your feelings hurt too often, 'cuz it isn’t really all about you.
Larry, your post is of an eloquence I can only envy and hope to emulate some day. I agree wholeheartedly – it seems that cicada is indulging in some good old-fashioned Maude Flanders won’t-someone-PLEASE-think-of-the-children moral outrage without truly reading the OP or the majority of the responses to said OP. Yes, there are admittedly some creepy responses (some that icked me out myself) but the majority of the response seems to be, “Yes. I’ve caught myself looking at underage girls and am somewhat disturbed by the contradiction of emotions I experienced.”
cicada, this quote of yours disturbs me greatly.
Do you truly believe this? If so, I’m sorry to disabuse you of the notion that a fantasy life and reality are two different things. Again, some of the creepy response to the OP do seem off-putting, and I would urge you not to typify that as the standard ‘guy response’. But fantasizing about something and doing something about it are two different things. I may fantasize about being a starting center-fielder for the Yankees – doesn’t mean I’m gonna go try out for the position.
As for the humor in the OP, mentioned by you:
**
Humor often helps us deal with subjects that are uncomfortable. It helps put a situation in perspective when you can laugh with other people. Doesn’t mean we find the situation itself funny; I’m betting Sofa felt pretty darn creeped-out in that train station, and I’m further betting he didn’t laugh about the situation while he was there. When he can craft a well-written and funny OP later, we can all share and say, “Yes, Sofa, I know what you mean – that’d make me uncomfortable, too.”
Hey **acicadasings **, I’m not ganging up on ya. I think you’ll do just fine here (even if you are wrong about this particular OP). Posters will disagree with you. Discussions sometimes get heated.
This thread has been pretty mild considering it’s in the Pit.
acicadasings
You’re sixteen, and have been sexually active now for a couple of years, clearly you’re not a shy flower. I’ll provoke you:
Would you do any of these guys: Brad Pitt (39), George Cloony (41), Johnny Depp (39), Val Kilmer (43), Robert Downey Jr (37), Jon Bon Jovi (40), Mel Gibson (46).
All that the girls were exposed to in THAT situation was a man standing there, thank goodness. I do believe, however, that if you have this attitude towards women in general, and girls specifically, it could well SOMEHOW affect your behaviour. I’m happy and grateful that Sofa King didn’t take this any further than the fantasy and the crude post, and that he could keep it in his pants and in his mind, so to speak.
I do understand the concept of physical attraction, and that the body sometimes CAN’T HELP but respond to something that the mind would really rather avoid. However, Sofa King’s post wasn’t that instant reaction of goosebumps and excitement that you described. It was fondly (and far too luridly) recounting an imaginarily sordid experience. Any physical reaction would have been long forgotten, but he was still enjoying the memories. I’m a little uncomfortable with that.
You dealt with your own uncomfortable experience VERY well, and I hope that doesn’t come across in the wrong way. It’s a serious relief to see that there are still some of those who I consider ‘normal men’ to be around these parts. :rolleyes:
I try my best to be open-minded about things, and I’m all for freedom of thought. As others have pointed out, it’s when these thoughts are ACTED upon where things get worrying. While making a silly, dirty post isn’t acting upon dirty thoughts per se, I still don’t think it’s exactly right, or a respectful attitude to have towards anybody.
Of course. Sorry I couldn’t manage a better reply, but I’ve said most of what I wanted to say already, and I’ve been at this for a while, as you can see. Good point about Afghani women, by the way.
Eris, it was unnecessary to get so hysterical, especially as you appear to be accusing me of behaving like that myself. I’ve already addressed everything you’ve said in my previous posts, anyway. Tuckerfan, The Gaspode, Biggirl, and Zanshin, you have some points I’d like to address, but I’m going to leave it for now. Computer needs a rest. While the majority of you have been overwhelmingly courteous, this still feels like a ‘pile-on’ for me, and as a result, constantly composing replies is taking its toll. I’ll check back here tonight.
Not to presume anything about the company you keep, but I think you might be surprised by some of the things those “normal men” you know think about and possibly do that they keep to themselves, in private.
The scene: Noon flight from Gatwick, London, to Minneapolis. One of those big jets with two-five-three seating and isles about 18 inches wide. A Gentleman of a Certain Age is seated on the larboard side, on the isle. In comes a fine young thing in full Britney accompanied by what appears to be her mother, a lady of more or less 40 in similar costume. The sweet young thing climbs into her seat in the row adjacent. Mother stops to cram stuff into the overhead and then under her seat. She bends over, putting her butt about four inches from Gentleman of a Certain Age’s nose. A plumber’s butt exposure results.
AAAAGH! There is long black hair in the separation and up the spine (which is passing strange since both mother and daughter hold themselves out as blonds). Bad, bad fashion statement! Ruined the whole day for our hero. An eight hour flight trying to get that picture out of his poor old brain.
Yes, yes, jokes are fine. The ones scattered about this thread are not to my taste, and in my opinion, go from being a little bit off the cuff to sounding downright disgusting.
I don’t think one is necessarily ‘worse’ than the other. I can imagine that having an under-aged girl lust after you would be very awkward, could even cause legal trouble, and at the very least, social stigmatisation. This wouldn’t be much fun, and could be very damaging for both parties.
Being lusted after by someone considerably older is no walk in the park, either. To be in a situation where you feel you’re constantly enduring lecherous remarks, leers, and even threats to your safety by someone you’re physically repulsed by isn’t too nice. Of course there are varying degrees of what these older people will say and do, and that the occasional wink or suggestive remark (while unpleasant) is miles apart from what else I’ve described.
I’m aware that humans cannot selectively choose whom they are attracted to, and who are attracted to them. I’ve mentioned this already. I’m not sure what relevance this has to my original argument or the OP, in fact; it’s probably pretty likely that for every one girl who’d like someone as old as their daddy to want them and to fuck them, there’s another ten or twenty who’d be horrified at the thought. This is just sheer guesswork, but in my experience, it’s pretty sensible and informed. It’s quite safe to say that the majority of the girls sharing the train with Sofa King wouldn’t have seen him as a suitable beau.
I’m glad you treated her respectfully, but I am shocked at the father’s reaction! I’m sure a lot of it had to do with the fact that you were friends, and that he could trust you, but the fathers I know would beat a man to a pulp if they said anything that ‘lewd’ about their ‘little princesses.’ Sixteen is the age of consent over here, so this doesn’t seem quite so obscene to me. However, just because this girl knew she was sexy, and knew that you wanted her, doesn’t mean she was definitely ready for sex. A man without your level of self-control could have taken her ‘signs’ in the wrong way, and this could have been tragic. Of course, for all I know, this girl WAS ready to jump into bed with you.
Agreed. The only thing I’d have to add is that it’s not exactly pleasant and acceptable to have a good wank or a good laugh with your friends about it. Of course, these are only my personal moral standards, and within the eyes of the law, you’re allowed to fantasise about whatever you like. I just find certain talk and behaviour to be disrespectful.
(I’m pushed for time so I’ll only address a couple of the most significant issues…)
This is not what I personally said. What goes on between two mature, consenting adults within the bounds of the law is not a problem to me. While people of all ages are growing mentally and emotionally all the time, I think that beyond a certain age (let’s use eighteen for sake of argument), most people know themselves and what they want well enough to engage in a healthy sexual relationship. I would not consider a man in his 40s involved with a woman in her 20s to be ‘oogy’ or ‘perverted.’ They are both adults.
Because it’s common sense. Of course, there are people under the legal age who are dying to have sex, and people over the legal age who don’t feel quite ready. Laws are made to cater for the average person, the ‘norm,’ and society follows suit. While it’d be wonderful if things could be judged on a case-by-case basis, it’s impossible. I don’t understand exactly why this extends to what goes on between two consenting adults, however. The reality of it stands. If you want to have a (legal) ‘unorthodox’ relationship, you’re going to have to put up with a bit of criticism from some people, sadly.
I think the general consensus HERE is that children are off-limits. Everybody agreed that lusting after an eleven year old would be worrying and wrong. When a child becomes an adult (and thus a ‘suitable’ partner and object of attraction) is a little more complicated. Some believe that there is a specific cut-off point, such as when the child turns eighteen, or becomes legal. Others (and most here, I believe) see the maturation process as something more gradual and individually defined.
I was exaggerating to get my point across. However, I think I made it quite clear that I believe the majority of adult men are capable of keeping a fantasy (especially one as potentially harmful as fucking a young girl), as simply that, something to think about, laugh about, long for, but to never indulge in. There are plenty of things I think about doing and would like to do, but never would, for my own safety as well as others’.
Sorry biggirl ;), hate to bring my own experience into this again, but having known men who DO put their harmful fantasies into practice, I can’t guarantee that the posters here should ALL be taken at their word. People who want things do sometimes go after them, at any cost. Obviously this possibility isn’t as urgent or extreme as my previous post made it out to be, though. I’m suspicious and untrusting about this in particular because of the way my own life has panned out. I can only go on my experience, but part of the reason I knowingly jumped in and allowed myself to be ‘outnumbered’ was because I was very interested in hearing from other people and learning from them.
I still stand by the fact that I didn’t find Sofa’s particular brand of humour or use of language particularly tasteful or funny, and I can laugh at some pretty silly things. Sharing uncomfortable moments and embarrassing stories is perfectly acceptable, it’s just when people jump in and turn something rather vulgar (but altogether harmless) into something far ‘oogier,’ like you described, that I start to feel uncomfortable myself. I must apologise to Sofa King, because, while I didn’t like his thread, and constantly quoted HIM for examples, there were other people I was far more bothered by. I hope it is understood that I am not singling him out, but using him as an ‘easy target,’ being the OP and all.
I’m not sure if I understand this. I am aware that men will find scantily clad girls attractive when they reach a certain age. The Straight Dope hasn’t taught me this. I’m not sure what you think I’ve learned here…
You’re misunderstanding. Finding someone attractive is not disrespectful. Cracking dirty jokes about them, boasting about your experiences with an unwitting participant, and expecting others to laugh along with you is a disrespectful attitude to have.
I agree completely.
Of course. Wrapping teenagers up in cotton wool and hiding them from the real world will always do more harm than good. However, is ogling and leering at these girls an appropriate way of ‘preparing’ these girls for reality? Of course, we all have to learn that life is no picnic. Things will happen to everybody that we don’t like. I don’t think adult women should be openly ogled either. As long as this behaviour (and the attitude with it, the uncouth ‘Lolita’ jokes, etc.) is kept to onesself, and doesn’t harm anybody else, I don’t actively oppose it.
I can’t honestly say I’d fuck any of them, though I WOULD be tempted by Brad Pitt. Is he really 39? Wow. But seriously…I have a lot more self-respect than I did a couple of years ago, and aside from particularly spectacular circumstances, I wouldn’t consider a man that old interested in someone as young as me to be a particularly savoury character. I do get your point, though.
Phew! That’s it for now. I think I’ve addressed almost everything, and made my opinions pretty clear. Larry, thank you for being such a sweetheart. You seem like a very intelligent and level-headed person. biggirl, while I don’t think I’m ‘wrong’ for disagreeing with popular opinion in this thread (I hope I haven’t said anything SO outlandish and absurd that my opinions can be considered entirely unreasonable and unjustified), thank you for welcoming me too. I It’s been very interesting talking with you all.
I understand that since you’re very much alone with you position here, acicadasings, you can’t go into a detailed debate with everyone, and maybe I was a bit unclear, so let me clarify:
I wasn’t exactly addressing you, so I wasn’t targeting something you said. Just tried to add another perspective. Since you did answer, let me be clearer:
When I said "Why is it always wrong… I wasn’t meaning the law or “two mature consenting adults.” I was refering to the big unknown, always to blame: Society. That’s you and me and everybody else. In two years, you’ll be able to vote, and can then help make decisions in this society.
But what I was going for was rather - how do we come up with these boundries? It’s my impression that age of consent is pretty much 18 in most of the U.S. In Sweden it’s 15. Clearly, these two boundries differ quite a lot. Three years is a lot at that age. I have the perspective to say that I matured as much between 15 and 18, as I did between 11 and 14, at least mentally.
Sweden is a small country, but it’s still part of the ‘Western Society’. Why that big a diference? The legislators in the respective country didn’t just come up with an arbitrary line. It’s certainly not science. It stands to reason (I hate using that phrase, but I don’t have a cite), that it’s the morality of that particular country that dictates what the legislators do.
And that brings me back to my point. This has nothing, what so ever, to do with ‘coming of age’, lewd old men or age of consent. It does have something to do with our collective morality and unless we can figure out the mechanisms of that morality, my questions still stands and I repeat it:
Why is it always ‘wrong’ for a man over a certain age to have sexual desires for a woman of another age?
Of course, I use the word ‘woman’, meaning physically and sexually mature. Kids don’t even factor into this.
Is it the age gap? Why do we condemn that? You put unorthodox within “-”, but still, even for you to bring it up, means that you see that society would condemn this in some ways, albeit not strongly enough to send the older party to jail or therapy.
I’m still not talking about the law. I’m talking about all of us. I’m not saying there should be a board where R.Kelly can take his latest SO and get a court order that he’s allowed to screw her (even though it seems he’s being doing just that, after the deed).
What I’m getting at is that we focus so much on a persons age, that a man like me, with a 21 year old girld friend would be stigmatised. Her freinds would shun her, my friends would shun me. Her parents would probably not be very happy about it. We would get a lot of “so that’s your dad”-comments.
Clearly, this is something shared in both European and American cultures. It has nothing to do with a legal boundry. But it certainly is pertinent to this thread. Your strong reaction, and some other posters guilt show us that older man - younger (sexually mature) girl is wrong. If we’re fighting ignorance here, I want to know why we think so, 'cause I don’t have a clue.
Aaaahhh. Now it’s getting interesting. My point was of course that it’s down to the individual. I don’t know what’s your poison in men, I just threw in a couple of Hollywood hunks, that seems to get womens panties to gravitate towards the ankles, without interference of men.
But when you say that “a man that old interested in something as young as me,” you make the same mistake, that I’m trying to get to the bottom of: You make your own age your foremost characteristic. You seem smart. I get turned on by smart girls. preferably they should be a bit of a bitch too. Now, for the sake of argument, if you should find me attractive (I’m fa, very far, from being Mr. Pitt), And I should find you interesting, and we didn’t know our respective ages. I can pass for 32, you can prolly pass for 20. Should the age factor - not legality or morality of society - stop us from jumping to bed?
Hell, I’m 22 and I wouldn’t want to be in close quarters with any of those guys.
(Why O Why must Johnny Depp be so OLD? :()
Having been a kid recently, I would like to say that at 13, 14, and 15 (pretty much from that point forward) I was certainly curious about sex and knew the effects of the clothing I wore and what they were intended to do. I have never been creeped out by being stared at while voluntarily wearing something that I knew would draw attention to me.
I’m not bothered at all by this thread. I’m not at all surprised by it either. These guys are just human and from what I can tell they all seem to know right from wrong.
As for being disrespectful, well… he didn’t do or say anything to their faces, and what they don’t know about won’t hurt them. If you say someone can’t post about their experience in a humourous way in a forum where it’s appropriate, then where can they? People write disrespectful stuff about me all the time, but hey, it’s a free country and I’m not really interested in having a national Thought Police to make sure no one ever has a disrespectful thought about anyone else.
I think acicadasings is making a mountain out of a molehill.
I guess I shouldn’t tell her (?) about my outfit where I dress up to look like a naughty little 17 y.o. Catholic schoolgirl.
Sometimes it’s depressing to hear (or read) a man 25 to 30 years old talkinga bout how hot some 15 year old girl was because it starts to sound like a reminder that ‘young is sexy’ and at 24, I’m already invisible to men over 21.
Sometimes, I guess I wish it was me who was the ‘hot chick’ they were lookin at, that being mid-twenties was OK, instead of ‘I wish that 15 year old chick was legal.’
If you’re male and being over 30 makes you invisible to teenage girls, sometimes it feels like if you’re female, being over 18 makes you invisible to 25 year old guys.
I know we’re all so impressed with acicadasings eloquence and general learnin’ knowledge, but I must say…
when I was sixteen, I thought I had everything under the sun figured out as well. And I discovered feminist thought and literature and wanted to empower all the women of the world.
And now I’m twenty nine, and I’m realizing that the world is a grayscale, cutie. I’ve been a teenage girl, I’ve been a woman, I’ve dated older men, younger men…and I’ve been a woman named Frieda.
OK, not that last one.
But is it POSSIBLE, cicada…just POSSIBLE that some of us know what we’re talking about as well?
What you’re basically doing, is being a thought cop. And I doubt anyone wants that.
Well, I got back here kinda late, but I notice that my name’s been taken in vain. I guess the question, cicada, is: do I still have some explaining to do, in your opinion, or have the others adequately covered the ground?
I don’t really want to wade through everything that’s been said in the past ten hours, and I also don’t want to re-start a fire that may have burned itself out. But since I was called out by name, I’d kinda like to know if that still stands.
Aside to catsix: yes, there are 15 year old girls out there who are, in my estimation, hot.
The reason I’m talking about them here is that that’s what this thread’s about.
I happen to be attracted to women from young to old (and ‘old’ goes at least to 72 that I know of), skinny to Rubenesque, and of every skin hue under the sun.
So while there may be men for whom it’s so, trust me that if you’re invisible to me, it’s not because of your age.
