Thanks, acicadasings. I’m getting a bit disturbed myself. Maybe I should stop reading this thread.
**
The secret was held from the object of the lust. If you lust after someone and tell another, you are still secretly lusting after someone.
**
Where did you read this in the OP? Sofa King never made any pretense about being confused. In fact, he was very clear about his discomfiture because he knows this desire is, well, oogy. And where did anyone in this thread say they were “actively seeking out young girls to leer at”? Did you even read the OP? He took a taxi to get away from all the pretty young things.
And **acicadasings **, it is an undeniable truth that young people are not only sexually desirable, but are also quite sexual themselves. You know, that’s what puberty is all about. You yourself are quite confused (and gulible) if you think that post-pubescent adolescents don’t know that they are being sexy.
Finding out what is desirable, testing their newfound power, creating their new sexual identity-- that’s what adolesence do, for chrissakes. Do you think there is a switch in the back of all children’s heads that their parents push when they turn 18 that turns them form pre-pubescent innocents to mature adult?
And men find them desirable. This is true. The “sickness” that makes a 40 year old man lust after a 24 year old is the same “sickness” that causes a 30 year old man to find a 16 year old desirable. This is the way humans are hardwired.
Again I’d like to point out the difference between sexual attraction to a pre-pubescent and a post-pubescent. One is, in my opinion, untenable. The other very understandable. And I’d also like to point out the difference between feeling attracted to an underaged girl and actually acting on these feelings.
I, myself am shocked and appalled by all the people who are shocked and appalled. What planet have you been living on? People who want to infantilize teenagers creep my out almost as much as those who want to tart up their 8 year olds and put them in beauty pageants.
Ok, acic, let’s think about this ethically. You being a subject matter expert, as you are approximately of the age the OP is addressing, and since you are oh-so-terribly angered by this, I must ask you: Who is wrong in the afforementioned instances?
On one hand we have teenage girls who, whether they are aware of it or not, are dressing in a manner that is generally found appealing to man.
On the other hand, there are these disturbed and rather ungentlemanly older males who were- believe it or not - actually of that very same age group themselves at one time, and probably fondly remember being such, with all the awkwardness and unendurable hormones that go along with puberty.
Step back and think for a minute - when you are my age or, God forbid, in your 30s, will you think about your adolescent years with disgust knowing that you found people your own age attractive?
I doubt it.
All these people have said they would like to do what they did when they were of the right age. They did not say they would do so. It’s sort of a lamenting about the past in a non-traditional way.
Point taken, but this is rather irrelevant anyway. Are we supposed to congratulate the men here for not letting their feelings be known to the girls themselves? Are they supposed to be commended for holding on until they’re in the comfort of their own home to make dirty jokes about these children? While, of course, it’s a relief that these people seem to have shown enough restraint to keep their thoughts quiet around the teens in question, I don’t think they’ve done anything incredibly admirable by doing so.
Jocular tone or no, the LEAST that can be got from his thread is that while this situation MAY have been chance, he enjoyed every minute. ‘Uncomfortable’? He knows his desire is ‘oogy,’ but he damned well wishes it wasn’t. All the talk of self-control in this thread suggests that many of these men are serverely tempted to act upon their desires, and only don’t because there is a law preventing them. Maybe he took a taxi because he couldn’t trust himself around them any longer. How wonderful of him.
Are you quite finished insulting me yet?
I am perfectly aware that under-aged people can be sexually attractive to certain adults. SOME adults like to look at prepubescents, but that doesn’t mean we think it’s okay, or harmless. I am a teenager myself, did you even read my post? I know how to be sexy; I know that if I dress in a certain way, I’m going to get a certain sort of attention. I also know that I don’t like being ogled by old men, and I do find this far more threatening than being eyed by someone my own age. I also know that when I was younger, old men who found little girls exciting and sexy hurt me, and that their attitudes were very similar to some of the people’s found in this thread. I’ve mentioned testing boundaries in my previous post. I know that teenagers, children going through puberty and approaching it, like to flaunt their new bodies, test their newfound power, for all sorts of reasons. I am positive that the last thing on their minds is what a filthy man on a packed train will be thinking of them standing close. I’m not trying to ‘infantilize’ my peers, but I don’t think all innocence should be lost. I think a fourteen year old should be able to wear what she likes, without worrying about what daddy’s friends might think of her, or what they might like to do to her.
I’m very aware that humans are ‘hardwired’ to be more attracted to a healthy, young mate, with a well-developed body. I’m very aware that humans can make mistakes, and especially with teens wearing more make-up and skimpier clothes by the minute, it can be quite a confusing world for some adults, especially those who are seemingly socially inept, and get their thrills by pressing close to children. The acceptance of a natural inclination to be drawn to those younger and those with nicer, tauter bodies is one thing; the lecherous attitude in this thread is another.
I can’t iterate enough that I think it is wrong for any man to be speaking about women in this way, especially when the ‘women’ in question are actually growing teenagers.
Why are you shocked and appalled at people trying to protect those younger from being exposed to ‘adult’ things too soon? I’m not suggesting teens be refused to explore their sexuality. I’m not saying that the media is being corrupting, and that girls should stop listening to Britney Spears and stop flaunting their bodies so much. I think that a more relaxed attitude in society, encouraging ALL women to be more openly sexual is a wonderful thing. I do think, however, that men of a certain age have a responsiblity towards these young people, and should think (and act, and speak) more respectfully of them. These girls may be starting to look like they’re ready to be ‘bounced’ by you*, but that doesn’t mean they all want to be, and it certainly doesn’t mean they’d appreciate the way you see them and speak of them.
*Probably not you personally, but by the many men thinking of them in this way. :rolleyes:
Hear that Sofa King? Yer an OLD MAN 
Pssst… acicadasings, ‘lust’ isn’t like a faucet that can be turned on or off… Whether you find it revolting or not, the majority of straight men can’t help finding scantily-clad post-pubescent women of all ages attractive. sofa is just being more honest than most about the discomfort this causes.
Get their thrills by pressing close to children? sigh
Because you don’t speak for all children everywhere, teenage pregnancy is not a random event, young people are aware of sex, sexuality, and so are adults, and it just isn’t that surprising when the twain meet. Why don’t you take this to GD or something where we can have a nice discussion?
The OP didn’t fondle, caress, or bribe these girls to come back to his shack for hot love. He saw attractive girls, noted they were attracted, felt strange at the situation, and wrote a rather amusing piece on the subject. In short, chill the fuck out.
“noted they were attractive…” whoops.
** acicadasings** I have not even begun to insult you. Really. I haven’t insulted you, I’ve disagreed with you.
Now lets get some facts straight here. Sofa King was on his way home. He did not seek out a train car full of scantily dressed teenagers.
I think teenagers should dress as they like too (within reason-- you won’t find my 15 year old daughter in one of those see-thru thingies and a band-aid bra) but just because your a teenager does not automatically free you from responsibility of your actions. If you wear pants that show your asscrack and a shirt that stops were your breasts start-- be prepared to turn on some men-- old and young. It’s really that simple.
It’s not some sort of sickness on the part of adult men. It’s nature pure and simple. If you as a teenager feel uncomfortable with the fact that the way you dress is a turn on, well, you know what to do.
Oh, how I lament the lack of an ‘edit’ feature here. I would love to replace ‘appalled at’ with ‘appalled by’ :o :rolleyes:
The girls aren’t wrong, and I resent you trying to imply it. Even if one of these girls made every effort to persuade a considerably older man into having sex with her – and succeeded – the man ‘tempted’ would be wrong. Adults are given more responsibility, privileges, and rights because they are expected to cope with it. Those below the legal age are not, in the eyes of the law, capable of coping with sex. The adults should always be strong enough to stay away from situations as extreme as that.
I am not saying men are wrong to mistake a younger girl as someone older, or to find someone underage attractive. It can’t always be helped, and I AM aware that the grey area between childhood and adulthood can be confusing. What IS fundamentally wrong about this thread are the way people talk about these ‘abnormal’ desires. Forcing yourself onto a train so you can get close to little girls is not funny, or admirable, or just something ‘guys do.’ Talking about ‘nymphettes [sic],’ ‘bouncing’ and making other lascivious references to these girls’ ages is not my idea of accidentally ‘appreciating’ something out of reach. Knowingly eyeing somebody young enough to be your daughter, and then talking about it as if it were something amusing is wrong. Talking so disrespectfully of women of any age, but especially GIRLS, is not on. It is the general shamelessness of the posts in this thread that distresses me.
What is the relevance or significance of the ‘God forbid’ comment? Of course I will not feel ashamed or disgusted for being attracted to teenagers WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER. You and I are seeing this thread in entirely different ways. I don’t see a bunch of men longing to be high school age again. I see a bunch of men wishing the laws were more lax, or that these girls were a bit older, or at the very least, wishing these girls would stop dressing so ‘raunchily’ so as to not ‘tempt’ them.
I am fed up with the notion that men of any age cannot be in control of what they do, think, and say. It’s not right to just laugh along and join in with the joke when somebody says something so out of order. Before this thread, I could safely say that the people I had to deal with before were not ‘normal men.’ Now, I’m having to question what a ‘normal man’ is. It’s incredibly unsettling to think that it’s ‘normal,’ ‘okay,’ and ‘acceptable’ to think and behave in the manner demonstrated in this thread.
Nobody here is saying that except you.
You’re making an unfounded leap equating adult men (and women, by the way, did you notice?) who acknowledge their attraction to teenagers with statutory rapists. You should stop that.
If you consider honesty being rude, dirty, and disrespectful, fine.
I’ve not once said men should lie about how they feel, and that it’s entirely unnatural and wrong to be attracted to somebody young and ‘out of reach.’ In fact, I’ve acknowledged quite the opposite, several times. Mistakes do happen. Teenagers often look older than they are. Many men like girls with ‘good’ bodies, and there are plenty of teens with good bodies, and a lot of them certainly know how to flaunt it. What I consider distasteful is the boastful, disrespectful tone of the thread, especially in the original post, and honesty can be expressed in far better ways.
Once more, if you consider a blatantly lecherous post, with off-colour jokes about ‘nymphets’ and ‘bouncing’ amusing, that’s your opinion. I find it offensive and disrespectful, and an unhealthy attitude to have towards girls and women in general.
I don’t speak for children everywhere, and neither do you. I’m not unaware of teenage pregnancy. I’ve been sexually active since before I was fourteen and I’ve had some scares myself. I know that PLENTY of girls are becoming interested in sex long before they’re of legal age. I have also stated SEVERAL TIMES that I understand how men can be confused by teenagers, girls often go out of their way to attract attention from the opposite sex, and that while wires do often get crossed, it is not an excuse to behave in a negative, disrespectful manner, and it is not an excuse for men to openly and shamelessly and actively lust after girls half their age.
I’m starting to get the impression that people are deliberately ignoring this essential point of my argument, because they’ve already decided I’m a ‘prude,’ or that I’m ‘out of touch.’
Again, I grant you that Sofa King was not waiting around the train station until it was school was over, or looking for a group of teenagers to follow. However, it can’t be denied that he enjoyed the crush, so much so that he felt compelled to come here and describe it in excruciating detail, with inappropriate references to childhood included.
I am aware that teenagers should be responsible for their actions, and that you’re perfectly right – if you’re growing the body to fill Britney’s clothes, you’ve almost certainly got the mental capacity to realise that you WILL attract a certain sort of attention if you dress in a certain way. 
As I’ve stated already, I think it’s a terrible shame that teenagers not only have to worry about what their peers will think of them. They already have to deal with all the complications of school, their own social lives, and relationships, but there’s also that little matter of what their friend’s father will think of them, and that random guy on the train, too. Men (and all adults) have a responsibility to treat those more young and vulnerable with respect and decency. Lusting after somebody you’d have ‘bounced on your knee five years ago,’ or your growing daughter’s best friend is just unfair…especially when it’s being discussed and laughed about here.
A few comments to the cicada.
First, no one here has yet gone out of their way to insult you. Do not make the mistake of biting off more than you can chew, and settle down.
Second, I can only say I wish I had been able to speak with such certainty about the “responsibilities” of adults and the normality of their thoughts when I was 16.
No, they’re all just laughing about an absurd situation, and a man joking about having sex with under-aged Britney fans. Very funny.
As far as I can tell, there are far more men posting in this thread than women. As far as I can tell, a man is with these thoughts is far more likely to be a threat to teenage girls than a woman is.
I have not ‘equated the men here with statutory rapists.’ I admit, I’ve been so affected by this thread that I haven’t taken the time I ought to have making every point perfectly clear. I cannot say whether these men or women have hurt anybody, but going on the very scant evidence I have, these people just seem to fantasise. However, I would still be wary of them. They’re capable of thinking and speaking of young girls in a very lewd manner, and therefore, given the chance, they may well be capable of actually doing something with them. They’re not statutory rapists, or even ‘potential’ rapists, as such. I just wouldn’t like to be alone with them.
Also, it’s not simply ‘acknowledging’ or ‘being honest’ when you talk about a bunch of schoolgirls in such a fashion. As I’ve previously stated, there are ways of expressing honesty without being crude and disrespectful.
Is that what you’re trying to do? I think you’ve misread the OP. It would make more sense if you were trying to protect adults from being exposed to those young girls too soon, since all that the girls were exposed to was a guy sitting there thinking “Ick, I looked. What’s wrong with me?” I doubt that they noticed. 
Your generalizations about young people are a little off the mark. (Oh, god, here it comes, I’m officially a geezer, I get to utter the phrase: )
“You have to remember that us older folks have had the benefit of being your age ourselves-- some of us even remember what it was like.”
It may not be clear to you that it’s possible to feel a visceral attraction to a younger person that you know it would be horribly wrong to get involved with.
For example, I know a certain young girl that’s sexually active & vocally experimental. She’s the 15yo daughter of a woman that I’ve had an off/on relationship for the last 12 years. She’s been flirty with me since way before she could have had any idea what she was about. While it’s really easy to ignore an 11yo you’re babysitting who suddenly appears in front of you starkers and exclaims (unnecessarily,) “I’m naked!”, things get more complicated after puberty. Now, she’s taller than both her mother and me, and uh, pretty well-developed. And very forward. Not long ago, while her mum was out at the shops, and I was doing up the breakfast dishes she put her arms around me and kissed me on the back of the neck.
Yes, there was an autonomic nervous response. Goosebumps, redistribution of blood, all that. But the the conscious Mudd was disturbed and took evasive action: “I think I’ll go out and see if your mum needs any help at the shops.” (The distress didn’t stem from fear of villification or prosecution – she’s legal, and ironically, the age-difference is just about exactly the same as it was between her mother and I when we first hooked up… ) Now, I avoid situations where I might be alone with her-- not because I don’t trust my self-control, but because I don’t like awkward situations.
The point is, people can be (and increasingly are,) presented with stimuli to which the body responds with “All systems go!” while the mind says “For the love of god,* Nooooooooo!*” You can either accept that for what it is, or tear yourself apart worrying that the initial automatic (and quite natural) response means that on some fundamental level, you are a depraved, amoral, and perverse menace-to-society, who should probably be locked up somewhere.
It’s not like people have the ability to unsee someone because it’s assumed that the efforts that they’ve made to make themselves attractive are intended for those within their peer-group – you may as well scold someone with hay-fever for inhaling pollen. “That pollen was intended for other flowers!”
I totally understand your moral indignation, but save it for the people who really do “actively” seek out young people for their own titillation.
[sup]Also, before you assume that the lurid thoughts provoked by looking at someone who has taken the time to make themselves appear attractive is harmful in-and-of-themselves, take a good look down that road. That’s the most practical solution anyone’s come up with yet, and it’s merits are somewhat dubious.[/sup]
Oh give me a friggin’ break. People have sex, dude. Even women. Some of them enjoy it! :eek:
Negative, disrespectful manner? To whom was he disrespectful on that fucking train? Dude or dudette, you’re killing me here. Secondly, who is looking for an excuse but you? We aren’t ashamed about it for Eris’s sake.[ul][li]You know women are attractive.[]You know young women are attractive.[]You know men are attracted to that which is attractive.[]Some men are willing to discuss the depth and implications of their attraction.[]There is no excuse for discussing attraction.[/ul] Whatever.[/li]
Not only is it you who finds that we should be ashamed, but it is you who finds your point salient. As the Monty Python sketch runs: “Say no more!” Know what I mean? wink win, nudge nudge
Oh for fuck’s sake. Do you think that teenagers can be perfectly sheltered in their teeny-bopper world until some Magic Moment™ when they will suddenly become adults and you won’t have to shame them or feel ashamed or tell them they should be ashamed or look for excuses or declare there to be no excuse for their existence? In other words, for a person to become an adult, they must learn to act like an adult.
I am suddenly reminded of a hypothetical Mary who learned everything in black and white. All knowledge was given to her by a perfect being/computer/whatever… everything there was to know, period, all in her little black and white world. Then she walks outside… did she learn anything new?
Who hasn’t?
How???!
I felt a little cornered by Biggirl’s first post directed to me. I AM very new to this board, and this is my first time in the Pit.
I am convinced that those older, stronger, and more secure should have a certain responsibility to those more vulnerable. Of course, this is a personal opinion, and I’m perfectly aware that others may be keener on self-reliance and the like. This is not exclusive to the adult/child situation. I try to help those weaker than me, and I don’t forsake all responsibility because I’m a child. I also think decent human beings should treat each other with respect and kindness. I don’t think decent human beings talk about children in the way the OP did.
acicadasings, did it ever occur to you that the reason men and women joke about nailing underage kids is to release the tension they feel when they realize that they find someone under-age sexually attractive?
Welcome to life. Do you know what’s worse than being a teenager and having some lecherous old fart lust after you? Being an old fart and having some teenager lust after you! Why is this worse? Because even if you’re not tempted by the teenager, you have to tread delicately around not only his/her feelings, but also around others who might suspect that you’ve decided to act on those feelings!
And this may come as a shock to you, but humans cannot selectively choose who is and isn’t attracted to them. It would be nice if we could, but we can’t.
So Sofa admits that a trainload of teenage girls got him all hot and bothered? Where’s the harm in that? There isn’t any. Hell I’d be willing to bet that at least some of those girls got excited at the thought that on old fart like Sofa would find them attractive.
A few years ago, I met my best friend’s daughter when she was sixteen. It was a hot summer day and she was wearing shorts, a T-shirt and dark sunglasses. Nothing Britney Spears level, but certainly revealing enough to know that she was advertising. She kept looking at me and smiling, like she knew she was getting me all hot and bothered (which she was). I was respectful to her, and chatted politely with her for the time I was there. When I later saw her father (my best friend) I told him, “Gary, if she wasn’t your daughter, I’d fuck the hell out of her!” He got the biggest shit-eating grin on his face you ever saw. She’s nineteen now, and doesn’t have any interest in me as she’s found that she can get guys her own age as wound up as she got (and still gets) me.
Truth to tell, its not at all oogy for an adult to find a teenager attractive, its perfectly natural. What is oogy is when the adult acts upon those feelings with someone who’s incapable of understanding what it all means.
I was wondering what this did in the Pit, but it’s gotten quite inflammatory in the end.
As a WASP of 41 (actually not the ‘P’), maybe I’m automatically tainted and biased by default in some readers eyes, but I can’t help throwing in some thoughts:
Why is it always ‘wrong’ for a man over a certain age to have sexual desires for a woman of another age?
Let me clarify. I was a top grade geek in high school. Didn’t start dating seriously untill I was 17-18. Hurt my ego and made me awkard around women till I was about 30. Something happened then, prolly age. Today I’m somewhat attractive to women. I don’t really feel attractive, but think of my own looks as OK. Yet I notice women of just about all ages checking me out. I’m not very well built, have a small potbelly, but am quite tall, 6’4" and blond and blue eyed, so I guess I stand out a little, even in Sweden. Also, I look quite young, can pass for 32-33.
About a month ago, a girl of 21, 20 years my junior, came on to me. She knew my age, is very smart and beautiful. She has clearly passed the age of consent, and wile my ego was boosted and I felt good about it, I wasn’t about to do anything about it. I’m past the phase in my life where I take a girl to bed pour le sport and couldn’t see myself getting seriously involved with someone that young.
To me, it was an amusing incident, that made me feel good. I told people about this. Reaction: “Eeewww!” … “Sick!”… “Hope you didn’t do anything, you should stick to women your own age.”
Had I acted on it, it seems I would’ve been socialy stigmatized.
Back to the OP and how it’s evolved. Why do we put such emphasism on ages rather than individuals? Why did I feel that it was the right choice to make - not going out with her? Even though she was well above the legal border here (15), and would be so in any country, most people found the notion to be sick.
To discuss the morality of this issue, we need to find out what the morality is, because it’s not a magic boundary which cease to exist on the 18th birthday. Either ogling girls markedly younger than yourself is wrong (no matter if they’re 17 and 11 months, or 21) or it’s not. OR is it that girls (and boys for those inclined) under the age of consent, is always off limits, even if the ogler is 21? Would it then be OK for an American male to ogle 16 year old girls in Sweden, of 14 year olds in Holland (where I believe the AoC is 12 or 13)?
acicadasings, you are going to fit in here just fine, no worries!
I just think that you’ve misunderstood a few things about the OP, and literally interpreted a post that made liberal use of hyperbole for dramatic and comic effect. In plain english, the post can be reduced to “I was recently in a situation in which there were many young girls who were dressed provocatively. I am disturbed because I found them visually attractive, although I would never consider acting on that attraction unless they were at least nineteen or twenty. I wish that the Britney Spears phenomenon hadn’t inspired so many very young girls to dress in such a sexy way, so that I wouldn’t be distracted.”
Sofa King was certainly a bit more, uh, colourful in his phrasing, but that’s about what he said. Not too objectionable. If crude language offends you, you’re in the wrong forum.
I hope you don’t feel like everyone’s ganging-up on you, because I think that you make a fine compliment to the SDMB crowd.
Cheers.