In response to twickster and Ninjachick’s spoilers…
I think Jack’s wife’s reaction to Ennis on the phone seals it for me that the beating was what actually happened. What I saw was her grappling with tangible proof (to a degree) of insight that had recently and traumatically been delivered to her, disrupting her (willful?) ignorance of who her husband really was. The blowout story could’ve come from a few different sources as a fabrication to cover the truth. The murderers could’ve set up the scene to cover the hate crime. The authorities could’ve offered it up as a way to avoid a messy investigation. Jack’s wife and her family could’ve thought it up as a way to avoid some messy retrospection. The last seems the least probably to me, again due to the way she reacted. I think she knew how and why Jack died, and Ennis’ call brought the point home and showed her just how long and to what degree her illusion had been at work.
Guess you never saw The Wild Bunch. Strother Martin and LQ Jones play their pair of filthy bountyhunters as a bickering gay couple. Ernest Borgnine and
William Holden are a bit more subdued but there is clearly a love that is more than friendship between them.
Here’s a NYTimes article on the subject of gay cowboys, if anyone’s interested.
It’s a tough call. The article above touches on it a bit. Basically there are a lot of men who will identify as men who have sex with men but are not gay. Their homosexual feelings are restricted to a very narrow range of men, or possibly just one other man. It’s hard for them to consider that they’re actually gay when they have no attraction to most men, and certainly no attraction to guys who are identifiably gay, like the ones on HGTV, Will & Grace, that saucy clerk at Macy’s, etc.
Some people say it’s a gay movie, 'cause it’s two guys. Duh.
Others insist it’s just a love story that happens to be between two men.
Some say King Kong is a love story, but you rarely here it called a bestiality movie. Semantics, I guess.
Good point about bestiality. I guess that since Kong didn’t get it on… its only a love story. So if the cowboys had only given each other lewd looks it wouldn’t be a “gay” movie
I’m quite sure that was intentional. Both he and his wife knew who Jack was to their son, though she was much more sympathetic.
Based on the sex scene with Ennis and his wife (when he flips her over), he’d definitely done it before, and therefore knew what he was doing.
As for the ending
I’m also 99.9% sure you are meant to believe Jack was killed as shown on screen, based on his wife’s obvious lying, the foreshadowing (when Ennis’s dad took him to see the body), and because it could have easily come out that Jack was gay if he was getting it on with that other guy (the one with the cabin).
I interpeted that scene with his wife a little differently.
[spoiler]The sex scene with his wife, when he flips her over, I interpreted as him having a taste for anal sex after he had experienced it with Jack.
Early in the film, prior to any physical intimacy, Ennis and Jack are sitting around the fire discussing Hell and whether or not they’ll both end up there. Ennis says something to the effect of, “You might be a sinner, but I haven’t had the opportunity yet.”
That statement made me wonder if he’d ever even had sex with anyone yet, including the girl he was supposed to marry that following November, who ends up being his wife.
Whether or not he’d been a virgin, I think the idea of using spit as lubrication for sex of any kind would’ve been one of those “common knowledge” things discussed by kids and teens trying to prove that they know what they’re talking about. I also don’t think it is that far of a leap of logic, and he could’ve just spontaneously figured it might be a good idea . [/spoiler]
Where is this passion I hear so much about? Surely it wasn’t exhibited anywhere on the screen. The main characters had about as much passion in them as a pile of meadow muffins.
Their ‘love’ must’ve been so close-up you needed a microscope to see it. Sorry, but play wrestling, heated argumentsa and an occasional buggering do not make for love.
Now that’s an understatement. I can’t stand actors who mumble their way though the dialog - and believe me, Heath Ledger sounded like a Vito Corleone doing sotto voce with a pound of chaw stuffed in his mug. Whether he was trying to mask his Aussie accent - or convey an inarticulate sorrow is anyone’s guess.
Just a meek, humble, western housewife who refuses to either smack her old man upside the head - or confront him before their marrage sours past point of no return. Unless she was an Asian mail-order bride, it’s not too likely any feminist era woman - even one from a hick town - would keep such a discovery to herself.
Christ, what a lousy metaphor.
I can’t argure with the Hulk comparison in that they both lacked pace, believability or many redeeming qualities. Both had their visual moments, but that’s about it. If you want to see a decent Lee film that tells a ‘forbidden love’ story, rent 1993’s Hsi Yen.
Actually I just watched it about six weeks ago. I’d suggest to you that there was more evidence for a homosexual relationship between Kirk and Spock than between either pairing you mention here. I have to assume you are joking. If not, I’m looking for something a bit more forthcoming than a twisted interpretation of subtext to hold up as a mainstream depiction of love and sex. Martin and Jones never kiss, let alone suck each other off. Perhaps all the shooting of people suggests that they are shooting their love guns? The scorpion scene - does it foreshadow forbidden love, to be taunted and killed by the children who are society?
No, I’m not joking. Get the DVD with commentary track. There you will find verification about the Strother Martin/LQ Jones relationship. Borgnine and Holden, I admit, are my own interpretation.
“Gay” is linguistic convention, not a biological fact. To a certain extent (this is an oversimplification), you’re gay if you call yourself gay. Before the 20th century, there was really no such thing. The social convention was that everyone was “straight,” only some men had secret attractions to another man. The social convention was considered to be separate from the physical attraction. The political sense of “gay” came about when the physical attraction was allowed to have its own social existence, rather than remain a private secret.
In the past, it was considered pretty universally “normal” to do what was “right”–to live according to the social norms; get married, have kids–and deal with your secret desires separately.
This is the context BBM takes place in. So, to a certain extent, it’s valid to say that it’s not a “gay cowboy movie”; that the guys aren’t lying when the say they’re not queer. They’re not, according to their understanding of the word.
I totally disagree. Their passion is evident in many scenes, particularly when they see each other for the first time after Brokeback, that kiss that Ennis’ wife sees is as passionate as it gets. (Can you think of anyone you would kiss that passionately after not seeing them for four years?) Ennis is practically completely emotionally shut down except when he’s with Jack. Jack wears his passion for Ennis on his sleeve. Just what do you think is passionate?
Again I totally disagree. I discussed this with my friend because she couldn’t really understand it either. My take is that she was a young mother with no marketable skills or reasonable way to support herself on her own, not to mention the shame and embarrassment she must have felt. It takes her years to build up the courage to leave him, and then she immediately gets involved with the guy from the store. Clearly, she was the dependent sort. Not every woman is a born feminazi.
Personally, I loved the film and cried my socks off. I thought it was a modern day Romeo and Juliet (of sorts.) A truly great romantic tragedy, emphasis on the tragedy. The beautiful scenery and great cinematography, the great character acting (Randy Quaid nailed his part and both wives were great), and a heartbreaking story make this movie an Oscar contender. I wholeheartedly believe that Heath Ledger deserves an Oscar, and that is something I never thought I would ever say. This movie blows away anything else I’ve seen this year.
Go and see it immediately!
Okay, but I’m not satisfied that it really meets the standard of “an honest depiction of romantic love and sex between two rugged and “manly” men […], especially in a mainstream movie.”
Next you’ll be telling me that, in Cool Hand Luke, when Strother Martin said “What we have here is a failure to communicate,” he was really saying “We never talk anymore!”
Word, but could we please leave some breathing room between utterly dependent and feminazi? I’d hate to think women must be one or the other.
I am still baffled that people were baffled by her reaction. The whole movie is about shame and repression- why should she be any different? Maybe the Hathaway character would have reacted differently, but not the one with kids and no backbone. Even today there are women with cheating husbands who continue to choose denial over confrontation (not that the latter is likely to save a marriage). Even getting a divorce was probably a drastic move for her in the community, and she likely wouldn’t have done it if she hadn’t had another potential husband.
I finally got to see it today and thought it was excellent. I had read the story, bought the soundtrack, and thought I was prepared, but…Man, oh man. My friend started blubbering after hearing of Jack’s death, and I lost it at the end when Ennis said, “Jack, I swear…” Then that very sad Willie Nelson song started playing, and my pal had to get up and leave before she became a soggy mess.
A minor quibble: I couldn’t always hear what the characters were saying in it due to additional noise, and with Ledger keeping his voice so low. But I got 99% of it.
I appreciated the fact that the writers followed the short story so closely.
Question: When Jack went into the Mexican village and encountered the man, what did that man say to him?
I thought it was a beautiful film and the characters and dialogue really rang true. I think bringing in McMurtry and Ossana to do the screenplay is what made this story come to life so effectively. McMurtry is a master of dialogue, and he develops western characters better than anyone else I can think of.
Just got in a little bit ago from a showing. It finally opened in Madison yesterday (on two screens at the art house, which is in a mall fer godsake) and every show thus far has sold out. I thought it was very good, but it wasn’t as good as I anticipated. I’m not sure if it could have been, given the accolades that have already been heaped upon it. As I was walkign out, someone saif to his companion something to the effect of how great it was that we didn’t live in a world where people had to hide the way Jack and Ennis did. I wanted to smack him. The film is set in Wyoming, hello, was it really so long ago that Matthew Shepard was killed in the very same state?
