Buffy 03/25/03 - Lies my parents told me (spoilers)

Cafe Society
81

Spike: I don’t check the people who think that the chip made him dumb. The chip definately became too much of a crutch later on, but season 4 spike was great fun, especially when he realized that he could hurt people in more ways than just physically. I’ve liked Spike’s arc… until the soul. The soul idea has ruined the idea of souls being special.

It seems like people want to have it both ways: first argue that Spike is different: that he wasn’t as evil even as a full vamp as most. I can definately buy that: but if that’s so, then Spike getting a soul doesn’t seem like much of a character shift. But Spike was never quite as human as he was in Season 6: I felt a lot more connection to him then than now. And I thought the writers were going to open up an interesting line of thought with Dawn’s “chip, soul, what’s the dif?” line (indeed, I thought Dawn worked best as a character when they were developing her relationship with Spike). But, no dice. It was soul soul soul. And yet, after all that, there’s nothing particularly significant about the soul in terms of him changing as a character. Even in the worst thing season 6 Spike did, the attempted rape, there’s nothing there to suggest this was the act of a deamon instead of a man: especially one that stopped as soon as he realized he was hurting Buffy.

Angel is worlds superior to Buffy this year, and it pisses me off. I can see how this season could have been fantastic. As I’ve mentioned before, the end of Lessons made my heart skip a beat: back to the beginning… only promising to be even cooler and deeper. How the FE could have been not just dark, but feel truly ancient and connected, with the season slowly revisiting Buffy’s history and its fingers in everything: changing what we thought we knew even about seemingly stand-alone eps. A Dark Tower for Buffy.

But, that was not to be. And I wish I could say that my dissappointment with the season was based just on my hope for that scenario. But it wasn’t. Unlike many, I liked season 6 as a season, as an arc. I even liked Buffy’s journey there. Many of the eps were sort of weak, but that’s not quite the same thing. Season 7 has been the opposite: a couple of strong episodes that got my blood pumping, but a terrible season so far. It really really feels like they’ve been killing time: Joss knew what big ending he wanted, but the writers who have been filling in the time leading up to it have been without much direction.

The FE is the real example of this: it’s been bumbling, simplistic, and just plain confusing: the whole seal thing just feels like plot hole piled on plot hole. Conversations with Dead People was its shining moment, but that was also the start of the end, with it’s unintelligible manipulation of Spike (Wow: the FE’s incredible first big invention is… a vampire who kills people: but only SOMETIMES… and then even this great idea is apparently best utilized as a punching bag in a cave for weeks) and the start of the seal confusion (Johnathan dying for nothing (I’m not a big fan of cheating fakeouts like Spike’s “killing of Wood” or “the seal activated” that then are just quietly deflated when we come back)… except even though it didn’t work, it’s the big special thing that links Andrew to the seal? Bringers can slaughter slayerettes and watchers en masse with knives and TNT, but they couldn’t kill one lousy human to bleed on the seal?)

Giles is particularly sad. He’s someone new now, that I don’t recognize. But we never got to see this happen. I could go on. I hope the last few episodes will tie up some of this.

82

I’d argue that this is a side of Giles we’ve seen before - most notably in “Helpless” and “The Gift.” And to a lesser extent in “Once More, With Feeling” – he’s willing to be cruel to, and even deceive, Buffy or others if he thinks it is the right thing to do or will lead to the right end.

Obviously he was very conflicted in “Helpless,” and eventually ended up destroying his career by siding with Buffy over the Council… but that doesn’t change the fact that he deliberately injected her and put her in mortal danger. He killed Ben as he lay helpless. And he was willing to leave Buffy completely, knowing it was hurting her, because he believed that in the end, it would be for the best.

I don’t agree that this is a new Giles. It’s just hard to face that Giles has flaws. :slight_smile:

  • Rick
83

I disagree. This is classic Season 6 Xander- a character rewrite in a single episode. Almost 7 full seasons of characterization thrown out of the window. I spent the whole cemetery scene going “oh please”. Horrible.

Next week Giles opens a disco! After that, he starts dating Clem! Grows a mohawk and starts singing in a punk band! Just as believable as last week’s rewrite. Its probably a good thing they are canceling the show- at least it limits the damage ME can do. Yeesh, its last season over again. So much for learning your lessons. I guess Firefly and Angel sucked up all the good ideas.

84

At least then we’d have Clem back.

joshmaker, Drew Goddard seems to be attached to my favorite episodes this season, if not all time: Conversations with Dead People (the only Buffy episode to scare the living piss out of me: “mother’s milk is red today” :eek: ), Selfless (Anya’s backstory), Never Leave Me, and this episode. Goddard’s a fan himself and IMO is responsible for providing needed depth and layers to the characters while producing some cracking good writing.

85

So what was your take on Giles in “Helpless?” Was he The Real Thing, or a cheap knock-off for that episode?

86

Giles is acting very strangely, and quite frankly, I don’t feel as though I know him anymore. I don’t know how spoilerphobic people are, so I’m going to put the next bit in the spoiler box, but it does not mention a specific event or episode, just a little bit of inof on Giles.

His character wasn’t destroyed to make Spike look better. After reading 18-21, we see that Giles has major…something…issues maybe. And if you think about it, he’s been acting strangely since he came back in 10. Some think it’s Pod!Giles, some think it’s regular Giles…but whatever is, the First!Giles, I believe, was a red herring. Anyway, he’s going to do some things and stuff that’ll really make you question who he is and what he’s on about.

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pepperlandgirl, I used to think that you worked on the show.

Now I see that you’re just obsessed with the show :slight_smile:

Remember-- we’ll be here for ya when it’s over in May, all right?

88

Anyone have any knowledge if the finale is going to be a two hour event as I believe it deserves?

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Something does seem wrong with him - I’d say since he came back at the end of 6 to stop Evil!Willow. Perhaps whatever “juice” he brought with him to spike Willow affected him in some what that he may not have expected.

90

Sort of the Real Thing. He was horribly conflicted over it, and that was prior to him breaking away from the Watcher’s Council. That being said, the episode was very stupid. The whole test thing was eye-rollingly contrived.

I had forgotten how bad that one was-- I hope your happy now. If anyone mentions Beer Bad too, I may cry.

[stumbles off to watch The Zeppo to get in his happy place. . . ]

:wink:

91

Fair enough - but it HAPPENED. Giles did what he did in “Helpless.” We cannot now engage in selective memory and say that he’s acting completely out of character.

92

Fair enough.

However, I am not sure the situations are the same given when in the Buffy continum they occurred. The first time he did it against his will prior to breaking with the Council vs willing doing something of his own volition. When it came to saving the world he did not go after Dawn even though his failure to do so nearly cost them the world. Spike is such a risk he ignored it for most of the season, then let a relative rookie with no special powers take on a very powerful and experienced Vamp he knew did not have the chip anymore. Huh- when did Giles get hit with the stupid stick and the untrustworthy stick at the same time?

Giles has staked his share of Vamps, staking an unsuspecting Spike from behind would not have been to hard at all. Plus, what a plot twist. . .

:slight_smile:

93

Sorry- I didn’t mean to duplicate the “fair enough” from your post - that was unintentional. :smack:

94

It’s true, we’ve seen a dark side of Giles before. Remember (can’t remember the ep title) the episode when that demon was hunting Giles and all his friends from his Ripper days, and Jenny Callender ended up getting possessed? Don’t think he left that past entirely behind him.

I just wonder if ME, seeing the popularity Wesley has been enjoying on Angel, isn’t trying to remake Giles in Wesley’s (darker) image, forgetting that Giles has been the father figure for the past six seasons.

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My theory for why the chemistry between Giles and Buffy (heck, between everyone in the show) if so off lately is because of Willow. Since the beginning, she’s been the “most good” character on the show. And last season, she went evil and tried to blow up the world. If Willow could go evil like that, any of them could go evil. Now, they’re all second-guessing eachother and wondering what they’d do if Buffy went psychotic, or Xander started using his Powers of Construction for darkness. Plus, since last season, Giles has some good reasons to not trust Buffy’s judgement, especially when it comes to Spike.

96

I’d argue that Giles’ failure to kill Dawn, even with the high stakes they were facing, argues in favor of consistency with his actions vis-a-vis Robin and Spike. He chose not to take action himself, yielding to Buffy’s orders that Dawn not be killed. He yielded to the Council’s orders that Buffy be drugged, and he yielded to Robin’s strong suggestion that he take the passive, distract-Buffy role. Besides, while Robin may be a new guy, he’s clearly a superior physical fighter to Giles; of the two of them, I’d say Robin was the right choice to try to kill Spike.

I hate to type this, because Giles is in almost every way a good man. But he is not himself a general. He almost always is more comfortable with a back-seat role, an advise-and-consent sort of thing.

One of the things that rubbed both Faith and Buffy the wrong way when Wesley came on the scene was his immediate take-charge, I’m-giving-the-orders attitude. While Wesley lacked the credibility to suceed in that role, it does suggest that that was closer to the normal dynamic between Slayer and Watcher than that which Buffy and Giles enjoyed. Also supporting this view is Kendra’s highly deferential attitude when speaking of her own Watcher.

Perhaps this was necessary. Perhaps Buffy would have rebelled if a Wesley or a Kendra-Watcher-type had been assigned to her when she arrived in Sunnydale. But like it or not, Giles has been a guide, and a mentor, but not always a leader.

And when situations like this come along, that lack shows.

  • Rick
97

—I don’t agree that this is a new Giles. It’s just hard to face that Giles has flaws.—

I still think it is: the Giles in all those eps was still a very humanized Giles. This one seems like a shell: the character isn’t there, just the character bio. I think part of it is because we don’t know what’s happened to him in England. He used to have a place. He was a librarian/Watcher, then a magic shopkeeper confidant, then… what? What has be doing? Who is he?

I have the same problem with the new Buffy: except for goofiness, she’s constantly indignant about everything and everyone. It’s, dare I say it, boring. And it’s the same issues she supposedly dealt with many many many times over in prior episodes… and now here they are back again. And I still don’t get what’s up with the change: the world was just as doomed in Season 5 as it is now: maybe moreso (since aside from lots of vamps she’s already trapped with the seal, there doesn’t seem to be much of an Apocalypse on just yet). There wasn’t any big traumatic event that explains this change: maybe her stint in heaven changed her views about death? Anyway, it hasn’t been well explained. They tell us, not show us.

98

To be fair, Wood is an accomplished fighter and Giles presumably had no idea that Wood was going to trigger Spike before the throwdown. Also, Giles has been out of the loop and only learned that the chip was removed very recently (it seems like longer to us because of the damned repeats).

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Still, Wood and Giles were both acting very stupidly in the scenerio. Youknow who else was an accomplished fighter? Wood’s mother. Oh yeah, and the Slayer who still hasn’t killed him after six years. I think it was the pinnacle of arrogance ot assume that he could lock himslef up in a small room with Spike, and win. Especially in his triggered state.

LMAO! I wish I got paid for all ths shit I put myself through. Alas, no, it’s just an unhealthy obsession. I’m simultaneously dreading May and impatiently looking forward to it.
It’ll be nice to have my life back. :wink:

100

I don’t think so, I think Giles just believes that books are more inherently educating than the same words on a computer screen. There were many amusing bits between him and Jenny Calendar on that subject, many years ago. Perhaps the writers were attempting a moment of continuity.