Buffy 10/8 Nastiest.Demon.Ever.

[pepperlandgirl]

As far as I’m concerned, the people side of Spike only showed up recently. I would even go so far as to say that the people side showed up when Spike made a decision to get his soul back. As such, the only using of Spike in question was the bloodhound use.

And honestly? It disgusts me that people can look at a character who is intelligent, aware, emotional, loves, risks his life to help save the world, protects a teenage girl, and still say he’s a thing.

There’s a difference between asking him for help and using him. Buffy used Spike and Anya this week. If she’s not willing to let them be part of the “gang”, she shouldn’t go running to them whenever she has a problem she can’t figure out. She can’t have it both ways. Either demons are disgusting things that can’t be trusted, or they aren’t.

And I disagree she was apologizing for using him when she said “I’m sorry, William.” At most, she was apologizing for hurting him (and even that I kinda doubt) but I don’t think she was actually acknowledging, or taking responsibility for, the way she acted. If she had, she wouldn’t have said “and it’s killing me.”

Not that it wouldn’t happen, but remember what she said to Giles at the end of “Never Kill a Boy on the First Date” -which I think has to get the award for Best Episode Title Ever- “Two days in my world and he’d get himself killed. Or I’d get him killed.”

Or Angel opting to remain a vampire in I Will Remember You so that he wouldn’t get Buffy killed by being a weak, normal human.

Yeah, right. That’s enough reason for a rapist to not seek forgiveness, right?

It’s amazing what a set of washboard abs can do.

That’s not fair. I think by seeking out a soul and actually receiving it, he was seeking forgiveness. He knew what a soul can do to a vampire. He’s not stupid. He saw what happened to Angel…though by his words in Beneath You, it seems clear that he didn’t know the true extent of what would happen. He did it so he could become a kind of man that wouldn’t do something like that. He acknowledged to Buffy that there wasn’t anything he could say…because words are meaningless. What else could he have possibly done to demonstrate how sorry he was? Take a long walk into the sunrise? Gaining a soul effectively killed Spike as we knew him, the way the soul effectively killed Angelus. In a way, Spike paid the ultimate price in seeking forgiveness.

[JThunder]

*Originally posted by Thea Logica *
Oh, and JTHunter, I think you’re missing the point about Spike’s not asking for forgiveness. Which, BTW, is not the same as not seeking forgiveness.

I think that’s a ridiculous distinction. If you’re asking for forgiveness, then presumably, you’re seeking it.

And even if we grant that piddling distinction…

**
During his period of lucidity in "Beneath You’, I think he realized that it would be pointless to ask Buffy to forgive him (“You tried to rape me. I don’t have the words.” “Neither do I…”) He knows that there is no way he could atone for his multitude of sins, so he’s not going to try**

Asking for forgiveness is not the same as atoning for one’s transgression. One can always ask for forgiveness, even when atonement is beyond impossible.

[Juniper200]

Originally posted by Trion

So am I correct in assuming that Buffy just left Spike draped over the cross at the end of Beneath You? Gah.

Actually, that’s where we the audience left him. Aren’t we all a bunch of total bastards?

Well, I guess you got me there…but let it be known that Joss and Co. dragged me out of that church kicking and screaming!

In any case, as plg said, I was basing my assumption on Spike’s “You left.” line and Buffy’s response. But after giving it a little more thought and reading the thread, I agree with you that she just cleared out of the church pretty quickly, not that she stranded him on the Jesus hibachi.

You and JThunder make excellent points re: Buffy’s stance on Spike and the state of her character in general. The attempted rape is the thing that stands in the way of the shiny Spuffy future I crave, and I curse Marti for making it happen. I lean toward the theory that it was his last, desperate attempt to make her love him. However, while it may have made him realize he had to become something else and change for her, sexual assault is still sexual assault. Baby did a bad, bad thing. I think ME is going down the right road in not having Spike try to attone; it shows that he’s finally learning from his mistakes and I’m anxious to see whether Buffy forgives him. If she doesn’t, well, it’ll be interesting either way.

(And can I just take a minute to say that this is one of the many reasons I love this show so much? The writing and the acting are so good that even if the show doesn’t take the turn I really, really want, ten to one I’ll like it anyway. Love ya, Joss and Co.!)

Maybe I’m so anxious to have Buffy forgive Spike because her Angel forgiveness was flowing like a river in Season 3. It took time to adjust, but she reconciled Angelus’ actions with her feelings for Angel. But Angelus gave way to Angel because of a curse; Angelus would never in a million, zillion years seek out a soul. Spike did. In my book, that makes Spike a better man than Angel and I wish Buffy could see that and make with the love and forgiveness.

I want to see Spike punished for hurting Buffy. I want to see Buffy realize it’s wrong to use people. And then I want them to be happy together. Oh, and a pony. While we’re at it, I always wanted a pony.

[The_Asbestos_Mango]

…and if Spike and Buffy actually do get together (they weren’t really together in the togetherest sense in S6), and Spike steps into the role of co-parenting Dawn,

Dawn will have to deal with

having (de facto) parents

named

Spike and Buffy.

Like she doesn’t have enough problems as it is.

[erislover]

I love Buffy to death, no doubt about it. But she has some serious character flaws. She has not grown as a person since Season 1 IMO but rather descended into despair.

I think Buffy is a user. Her treatment of Riley was just that, and even though she ran to try and catch him before he got away, I don’t think that would have fundamentally changed her response to his presence in general.

Anyone remember season 4 when Adam got the Scoobs to all fight with each other via Spike (well, Adam wanted them separated and Spike got them individually to believe lies about the rest)? How did Buffy resolve the issue: “If you aren’t going to help me, then get out of my way.” But some of the Scoobs (Willow and Giles, namely) were also hurt by Spike’s second-hand info “about” what Buffy “said”.

I think Buffy is a user, straight up. The only character I don’t think she used on the show was Angel, but when I watch season 3 again this January I’m sure I’ll find myself contradicting even that.

Now, this sounds like a levelled attack on her character which it isn’t meant to be. Again, I do love the Buffster. If I were in that school I think I would have fallen in with the Scoobs by virtue of hanging with Willow and Xander to begin with. And I wouldn’t be disappointed with Buffy. But, point of fact (IMO): she’s a user.

And never was there a larger target for her means-to-an-end mentality than with the character of Spike. Apart from the first few times they met (and fought, until it became clear that she wasn’t really worried about fighting him) she’s used him. Spike is less than a vampire to Buffy—she won’t even kill him. Can we create a list?
[ul][li]“Becoming”—Use of him pure and simple to keep the heat of her so she could stop Angel from opening the portal to hell. []Maneuvering the caves during the Adam fiasco. []Paying him money for information like Willie the snitch. []Whipping boy. []Sex toy. []Blood hound. []History book (when she needed to know how the other slayers died… a great episode, IMO). [*]Babysitter.[/ul]That’s off the top of my head, I’m sure it goes on if I thought much more about it.[/li]
Spike isn’t even a second-class citizen to Buffy. I can’t even begin to think of all the times she nonchalantly tossed him a sun-blanket a few seconds after pushing him into the sunlight, threatened to stake him (yeah, right, I never believed it for a second… it is hard to throw away old tools), or otherwise insulted him.

IMO, Buffy sees the monster in her in Spike and hates him for it. And Spike was like a dog that was trained to love abuse. It was easy for a slayer to hate Spike when he was just a demon, the same way all the Scoobs looked down on Anya (which still pisses me off, I absolutely adore her). Now he’s got a soul, and the only reason he would have tried to get that soul was because of Buffy.

Now its clear she couldn’t beat down the person that was in the body she hurled abuse at.

Note to the anti-Spike: this is not meant to be a defense of Spike. He can’t be defended, I know it, you know it, and he knows it. Spike’s curse is more tragic than Angel’s.

Oh, and I’ve decided that in Buffy threads from now on I’m going to say: Down rules and I’ve always liked her so

[erislover]

Dawn, damnit, Dawn rules.

[Profane]

Sorry erislover the fact that you like Dawn automatically negates your opinion on all other Buffy matters.

[A_wizard_song_for_thee]

For a long time, I’ve thought the overarching philosophy on forgiveness in Buffy’s universe was well-stated by Giles in I Only Have Eyes for You (an episode for which Marti Noxon may very well have her place in Heaven reserved) when he said “To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It’s not done because people deserve it. It’s done because they need it.” So I’m wondering how long it’ll be before Spike gets forgiven for the attempted rape thing (even if it’s never forgotten). It’s interesting that they’re not trying to make a complete distinction between Spike with and without soul in the same way they made that line in the sand with Angel. Evil Angel was written completely differently than Fluffy Puppy Angel (so’s to make the audience accept Buffy’s choice), but so far, aside from a bit of the insane rambliness, Souled Spike is pretty much the same ol’ vampire. So they’re going to have to convince the audience to accept Buffy’s choice to forgive Spike even without a total character change. Of course, we know Xander will never forgive him, and I’d be surprised if Dawn did, she’s gettin’ vicious…

[The_Tim]

I think it is because Angel was a waste of space in life. He was after he got a soul as well. It was only once Whistler talked to him that his soul and him developed into something vaguely worthy of existance.

Spike may have been pathetic in life but he was more there. He hadn’t spent his life deadening himself and going on auto-pilot. The loss of his soul when he changed into a vampire seemed to have produced a new more liberated person but still there was something there that had been grown through his life and not just handed to him. He developed as a vampire to the point where he went to reclaim the vital spark of moral existance that is a soul. Seeking to attain something that profoundly changes you for the better at a great cost of pain is a noble thing to do. Attaining his soul may have made him better but he was still something other than a demon. Angelus had no man in him. As the Judge said “This one is clean.”

[Barbarian]

Aw, can we all just accept that every character on this show is mentally screwed up?

Spike is insane, and a slave to love.
Buffy lacks compassion, and is unable to share anything (feelings or information) unless it’s in a sexual relationship.
Xander is scarred by alcoholic parents and suffers from hero worship.
Anya is horrified that the first guy she loved in hundreds of years abandoned her, and has retreated in going through the motions of an old job that now disgusts her.
Willow is battling an addiction to bliss, can’t get away from her addiction because it’s as natural to her as typing is to everyone on this board, and went temporarily insane when her lover died 4 months ago and killed a man.

[The_Asbestos_Mango]

I’m with awsft on this.

Spike will be forgiven by Buffy. Dawn will take longer, but she’ll eventually come around, too. Xander won’t forgive him- it’s not in his nature.

I think there has been a change in Spike, but it’s a subtle one. I think the reason we haven’t seen much change is that Spike came through being changed into a vampire with a large part of his humanity intact. That and the fact that, while a bit of a wuss, William was essentially a good person with a gentle soul. He also retained a capacity for love that Angelus lacked. FX just showed “Tell Me Lies” last nite, and that scene where he abandons the attack on the basement of the vampire wanna-be club to save Dru from being staked by Buffy was pretty typical Spike. Liam/Angel was an amoral drunken whoremonger who had no compunctions about robbing his own father.

In “Beneath You”, when he was lucid, Spike seemed gentler in his interaction with Buffy than in the past, at least until it became apparent that Anya was going to blow his cover and he flipped and went all fangy and violent (that scene still disturbs me, BTW). In the past, and sorry if I’m going over territory that’s already been covered, Spike did good, but with motives that were ultimately selfish, even if what he hoped to gain was something as intangible as love. His love for Buffy even was ultimately selfish.

I think this season, we’ll see Spike showing an ability to love selflessly and to give his help Buffy and the Scoobies with out expectation of gain, either material or emotional. He will, however, continue to snark at Xander, because Xander somehow invites snarkiness.