Reminds me of the Castlevania video games,which are set in Dracula’s castle. 
I think it is to do with the great power of the hell mouth,it causes the structure to shift around or at least creates the illusion.
A few comments for Wierd_Al,
- That was my thought before the season started, too: the coven in England would find a way to take away her power alltogether.
However, it make a lot of sense that they didn’t. It was made entirely clear in season 4 that she was naturally gifted in the magical arts. Tara said so herself, “You’re way more powerful than I am.”
While Willow became uber-powerful and nearly unsoppable at the height of her powers, she was also not in control of those powers. Those eeeevil energies were controlling her actions, and she really had no free will (no pun intended) left.
Now, she has been helped away from that back down to the “normal” level of power she should naturally possess. Logical, no?
- Fashion. BAH! A silly thing to say, that.
She has indeed grown up, she has experienced more, and she is no longer the geek she was in high school. She is assertive and, dare I say, looks damn good.
To say she shouldn’t be dressing like that would be to say:
a) Not only does she have to be in emotional agony over what she had done, but she has to regress emotionally to the floundering, frightened nerd she was five years ago. And
b) That just because she feels bad, she should go out and buy a whole new woredrobe to physically display her newly-sedate temperment.
Boo-friggin-yah.
And in my haste, I misspelled your name. For that I apologize.
(Oh-what-a-poofter-I-am …)
You’d think that fans of a show about vampires and demons wouldn’t be that queasy. As it was, I didn’t think Gnarl was that bad or disgusting.
I especially liked the scene in the basement-- On the first iteration, it was obvious that Buffy was down there as well… But on the second you see that Buffy and Xander were downstairs and asking the same questions as Willow much earlier. Very nice.
Hell ya.
The attempted rape did not happen all that long ago in the Buffy-verse. While the Spike girls have complained about the episode’s writing— it did happen. So did seasons 2-4.
Spike did bad things up until he left. He treated her just as poorly as she treated him-- balcony scene anyone? She had just been ripped out of heaven after dying to save the world— again!
What was Spike’s excuse? That’s right- he was evil. Remember his little scheme which nearly helped destroy the town- he did that while “in love” with Buffy.
In fact, he has just slugged Anya in front of everyone. If anything Spike has been given every possible chance, again and again. When will Buffy give him a break? Huh? When will Buffy stop giving him breaks. At this point I am sick of the two of them together. Time to move the plot forward, please.
While I don’t dislike Spike, I think the Spike worship has gone a bit to far, often coloring analysis of the show too much. Sometimes I wish they would just spin him off- maybe to New York to help the helpless with the help of a secondary character-- Clem! Spike and Pals-- tonight on UPN!
LunaSea, did you watch S5 at all? You know, the season where Spike willingly put his life (such as it is) on the line to protect Dawn and help Buffy save the world?
I’m not going to apologize for Spike trying to rape Buffy, but I don’t think that that was his intent when he showed up in her bathroom. And the more I think about it, the more I think that he wasn’t so much trying to force her to have sex with him as he was trying to force her to love him. Yeah, it’s sick, but I think that’s what the gang at ME was trying to get across. The whole relationship was sick, really. Both Buffy and Spike would have been better off if they’d never had sex in the first place, leaving Spke to try to regain what he had lost in the second place. Buffy was just using Spike so she could [i[feel something*, and Spike was content to let her because he felt that shagging her and getting bieaten up afterward was better than not having her at all. Pretty empty for both of them, and Spike knew it as well as Buffy did. The attempted rape scene was a great plot device- Spike making one last violent attempt at gaining Buffy’s love, Buffy giving him one last violent rejection before Spike realizes that he needs to become a completely different creature.
And I adored Spike in S4- the Bid Gad reduced to a “fluffy puppy” with bad teeth"- “Something Blue” still remains my all time favorite episode.
Also, everybody seems willing to forgive Willow for trying to** kill them all and destroy the world**, which in the cosmic scheme of things is a lot worse than a halfhearted rape attempt. Also, Buffy still loved the Angel, even after he had lost his soul, and was more than willing to forgive him for the murder of Jenny Callender.
And Spike ddn’t stop loving Buffy after the brutal beating she gave him in “Dead Things” when he was trying to stop her from essentially throwing her life away when she thought she had accidentally killed Katrina.
And you make Spike’s having gotten his soul back sound almost trivial, like losing a few pounds and getting a new haircut.
Spike really has changed, on probably the most fundamental level that a being in the Buffyverse can change. He got his soul back, not as a result of a Gypsy curse, but of his own volition, because he realized what a horrible thing he had done to the woman he loved.He wanted to change, and he had to endure some seriously dangerous and painful trials to earn his soul.
Does Spike deserve to be forgiven? Does anybody, really?
And, actually, whether Spike deserves forgiveness is beside the point. He’s made it clear that he’s not asking for forgiveness.
Buffy is not supposed to be a normal woman. She’s supposed to be better than that.
Also, Buffy thinking about her future? Her future ?!?. “Hmmm. I’m the Slayer. That means I’m probably not going to live to be twenty-five. I’m twenty-one now, and I’d be happily pushing up daisies at this very moment if my idiot friends hadn’t done that stupid resurrection spell. So, do I want to spend my time looking around for Mister Right, and hope I can pop out a couple of children who will be orphaned before they make it to toddlerhood when I meet my next violent, bloody, and hopefully permanent demise, or do I take the love that’s offered to me now?” And a healthy relationship? Puh-leeze!!! The closest thing she had to that was Riley, and that fell apart because he couldn’t handle being with a woman who was stronger than him. IEven if Buffy manages to hook up with a nice, normal guy,either she’d have to deal with having to hide her Slayerness from him, or he’d have to deal with knowing that on a nightly basis she was going out and risking getting killed by something supernaturally nasty every night- probably not something your average nice, normal guy could cope with. I think about the healthiest relationship she’s going to find is with a broken-down and completely remade Spike. Spike is nothing if not a keen observer of human nature. I think he hit it dead-on in S5 when he told Riley that “the girl needs some monster in her man”. But what he missed, and realized after he had done the unforgiveable, was that she still needs her man to be a man. And, so, he became one.
elf6c, screw that. I say give Clem his very own show!!!
I do agree that a spinoff show with Spike as a central character would be a good idea, hopefully not too Angel-like. I’ve never watched Angel, , though, so I wouldn’t know if it was.
FTR, I don’t think Spike is fully redeemed yet. If anything, he probably has a tougher row to hoe now that he has his soul back and can feel the guilt, the shame and the pain of what he’s done over the past hundred twenty-odd years. I think it is still possible for TETDITB to warp him, convince him that he is irredeemably evil so that it can use him for its own purposes.
Bravo, Thea, that’s my outlook on the matter. Spike is, IMO, the perfect match for Buffy. He has the darkness she craves in some way, but none of the baggage than Angel’s curse had. She felt drawn to Spike in S6 for a good reason.
And Spike is right to not ask for forgiveness. The look on his face when he realized that he had attempted to rape Buffy was pure remorse and shock, IMO… I felt bad for both of them in that moment… Spike was playing the game the way Buffy taught him to. Pure demon Spike is like a Freudian id creature, almost. That was good enough for Buffy to use (and Buffy, I think, is a means-to-an-end kinda gal for the most part).
Buffy needs to learn to handle the monster in her; Spike needs to learn to handle the man in him.
IMO Spike was never pure evil in the same way Buffy was never pure good; they aren’t rivals in a strict sense, I don’t think. Honestly, I never have.
Yes, I have watched every Buffy episode. I was giving my input on Buffy’s character develpment, not Spikes, and not Willow’s. I was trying to explain how I see through Buffy’s eyes where she is emotionally right now.
Yes, Buffy and Spike have a horrible, twisted, sick relationship. Buffy realized she was using him, apologized and ended it. Spike needs to get over her, she doesn’t love him. Why does everyone think they should be together? Let’s say the gender roles are switched, would you think that ‘Spikette’ should stay with ‘Buff’ and try to make him love her after he beat her, used her for sex and treated her like a slave? Hell no. These two people should never ever be together, and if the writers decide they’ll end up happy I think it would be the worst possible message to send.
I do think Buffy could have a decent realtionship with someone human. Xander, Riley, Giles, Gunn and Wesley are all still breathing and know and can deal with the world of the slayer, full of demons and vampires. Is it really so hard to believe another guy could do the same. I’m not saying Buffy is a normal woman, but much has been made of the fact that Buffy is so special, and has lived so long because she has family and friends to help her. The writers have also made sure that Buffy has real, human emotions that are appropriate for her age. When she was sixteen she acted sixteen, now she’s 21 why shouldn’t she act like and have the feelings of a 21 year old?
I just watch and enjoy the show. The writers will take it where they want. I will not say what should happen.
I can’t even really say what I would like to happen.
Well, I’m not prepared to go into the whole Buffy/Spike relationship I am prepared to discuss the following:
Personally, I think people are being too hard on Buffy. So far in this thread I’ve seen the following reasons for not liking her:
Actually, that’s where we the audience left him. Aren’t we all a bunch of total bastards?
We don’t know what happened after the scene ended. Can we please not make assumptions and condemn Buffy at least until all the facts are in?
Another assumption. She actually may have told them. Personally, I doubt it. But this is Buffy’s big flaw. I don’t need her to be perfect for me to like her. More on this below.
Well, Spike has admited to being both a) a vampire and b) crazy, I don’t have a problem with this. Besides, she was being snarky to Xander. The line was basically saying “Your plan sucks”. Spike may have overheard, but I doubt he would have been a big fan of the vampire-on-a-leash plan either. Considering it was a Xander put-down, he probably would have approved.
But nobody seems to mind when Buffy is snarky to Xander.
These seem to be pretty petty complaints. I’m starting to think some prople - mostly Spike fans - won’t like Buffy unless she is perfect. Or more specifically, being perfect to Spike.
Wait, wait, wait. They were trying to make us not like Spike in 2,3,4? Cuz I missed that boat. He had my twisted little heart when he attacked the school because he “just got so bored.”
Spike said something like “you left.” Buffy thought he was talking to her. She agreed and said she was scared. That’s a pretty strong implication that she left him on the cross.
There’s a difference between being perfect and not using people. (Yes, I consider Spike a people.) She used him for muscle, she used him as a babysitter, she used him as a dildo, and now she’s using him as a bloodhound. I don’t care if she never loves him. I don’t care if she hates him. I don’t care if she starts the “We Hate Spike” fanclub. However, if she’s going to keep him alive, I would like to see her act like a mature woman and realize that using people is not of the good.
Is that seriously too much to ask?
I mean, I realize the “joke” of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is that a self-absorbed cheerleader from L.A. is the savior of the world. It’s ok to be self-absorbed when your 15. But not when your 21. And while I have a tremendous amount of respect for her, and I think I will always love her character no matter what she does, she in some respects still acts like the self-absorbed girl from L.A.
Which, in one way, is a good thing, because it turns the typical hero archetype on its ear.
If it’s Spike? Hell yes. That wouldn’t be a problem at all. The rest of her life? Considering her friends let her actually stay dead next time, she may only have a few years left.
And why does everybody I’ve ever talked to (or seen, including Angel and her mother) think that just because she’s a girl she wants to have kids and the house with the mortgage? She already has that. For all intents and purproses, Dawn is her daughter, and she certainly has the responsibility of a house. Why does she need a man to make more babies and have larger bills? Maybe I’m just projecting, but that’s the stupidest plan I’ve ever heard.
And yet when he “moved on” with Anya, Buffy was hurt and furious. He’s not supposed to love her anymore, but apparently, he’s not supposed to love anybody else.
And she didn’t apologize for using him. It didn’t say “and it’s hurting you” she said “and it’s killing me.” She wasn’t even doing the right thing because she actually cared that she might be hurting his feelings! It was all about her!
And breaking up with him doesn’t undo all the things she did to him. And it won’t make him stop loving her.
I love Spike. He’s my favorite character. I love Buffy, she is a consistenly amazing person, friend, and hero. I want them both to be happy…together or apart, I don’t care. But above all, I want them to be “excellent to each other.”
Buffy acts like Buffy. I see no problem with a character acting as like the character act should certain things befall her.
Not to say she’s all that great a person. I’m not sure I could be friends with her if we ever met.
On the other hand, if we met, it would have to be in the Buffyverse, so there is no reason I would be Gorgon Heap. I may be someone else entirely, who might get along with her grandly … or want to kill her.
Imagination is cool …
Yeah, right. That’s enough reason for a rapist to not seek forgiveness, right? :rolleyes:
It’s amazing what a set of washboard abs can do.
Since being unforthcoming with disturbing information is Buffy’s usual modus operandi, I don’t feel it’s unreasonable of me to assume that she hasn’t told Dawn and Xander about Spike having a soul. And I saw nothing in this episode to suggest that she’s told them anything but “Spike’s gone crazy”.
However, I realize that it was unfair of me to assume that she left him while he was still slow-roasting. Upon further reflection, I think she probably did get him off the cross, and then the utter insanity of it all got to be too much and she fled.
But even if I understand why Buffy is acting the way she is (and I do, I’m not a Buffy-hater), it still irks me that Willow gets instant forgiveness and support and Spike gets left to mutter to the moving walls and rats in the basement.
And I would just like to say that I’d pay so much money to see Angel and Spike together at this point
I’m pretty sure that the statement was more to the effect that they hadn’t seen each other since the time in the church. There may have been more that we didn’t see. An implication is still not proof.
Besides after having had a flashback to the rape just from touching him earlier and having just heard him go on about “servicing the girl” I think it’s pretty understandable that she wouldn’t want to touch him. Remember, it took her a few episodes to get used to the fact that Angel was Angelus. Do you really expect her to go rushing to help the new improved Spike within five seconds of learning that he has a soul. With no time to adjust at all? Sure. Right. Very believable.
As far as I’m concerned, the people side of Spike only showed up recently. I would even go so far as to say that the people side showed up when Spike made a decision to get his soul back. As such, the only using of Spike in question was the bloodhound use. And even Thea said:
Maybe you two would like to discuss this issue amongst yourselves.
Yes she did. “As You Were”. Last line.
Transcripts can be found at www.buffyworld.com
LunaSea, I think I see your point.
I must confess that, for some strange reason, when it comes to movies. fiction, TV shows, especially in the SF7F/Horror genre, I tend to identify with (and simultaneously have the hots for) the male characters more than the female characters, and there is a part of me that is drawn to “the Dark Side of the Force”. So, basically, I see the situation more through Spike’s eyes than Buffy’s. Of course, watching the show with my own eyes, I mostly see Spike/Marster’s, uh, other attributes. (pause to wipe drool from my chin)
BTW, watching the first three seasons, I pretty much identified with Giles.
Go figure.
Trion, I just can’t see a Buffy/Xander relationship. I never really did like Xander, although I admit that he does have his moments- like his speech to Buffy when Riley was about to leave and she was just going to let him go. (Not that I liked Riley much, but Xander was great in that scene). And then of course, there was the “Crayon-breaky Willow” speeh at the end of “Grave”- the first time I ever cried over a TV episode, and Xander was responsible. Kudos to Nick Brendon. But mostly, I think Xander is a dweeb.
Buffy/Giles? Don’t think so, and it’s not just the age difference. They just wouldn’t fit, somehiow. Although, I do think that Giles is the second most shaggable male character on the show, right behind Spike.
As for Wesly, Gunn, et al, they’re pretty much all “inside the loop”. Wesly started off as a Watcher and Gunn, well, never watched Angel, but I think he has somethingj of a past, supernatural-wise. Let’s just say that living in Vegas, there was an article in the local paper about the shooting of an episode here in town (wiich I did not go downtown on my night off to observe, BTW), and there was a Gunn-related spoiler.
Any “normal” human man that Buffy could petentially be involved with would either be seeing “Secret Identity Girl”, which I don’t think would be healthy, or he would have to be in on the slayage, and Buffy is, for good reason, I think, very reluctant to bring new people into the Scoobie gang. Not that it wouldn’t happen, but remember what she said to Giles at the end of “Never Kill a Boy on the First Date” -which I think has to get the award for Best Episode Title Ever- “Two days in my world and he’d get himself killed. Or I’d get him killed.” words to that effect. Probably the only shot she’d have at a relationship with a totally human man would be if she ran into another demon-hunter guy, hopefully not as pure-as-the-driven-snow as the ever-boring Riley Finn. But guys like that come few and far between, even in the Buffyverse.
Oh, and I don’t expect Buffy to be perfect, not even in relationship to Spike. Once he recovers his sanity, she can even snark at him a bit if she wants. I love Buffy when she’s snarky. (and I really, relly love Willow when she’s snarky. She doesn’t snark very often, but when she snarks, she snarks extremely well. I’ve learned a new word this week- snark, with its adjective form, snarky). And Spike himself is the King of Snark. Even insane, he can snark. (“Well, yeah, where have you been all night?” and, the newoly ever-popular “I’m insane, what’s his excuse?” ) I just don’t like seeing snarkiness in relation to characters who have gone throgh the trauma of getting their souls back, going insane, and recently having been seen burning themselves on crosses.
JThunder, I meant because it isn’t something that should be forgiven.
Oh, and JTHunter, I think you’re missing the point about Spike’s not asking for forgiveness. Which, BTW, is not the same as not seeking forgiveness.
During his period of lucidity in "Beneath You’, I think he realized that it would be pointless to ask Buffy to forgive him (“You tried to rape me. I don’t have the words.” “Neither do I…”) He knows that there is no way he could atone for his multitude of sins, so he’s not going to try. I think he basically wants to help Buffy save the world from supernatural nasties of various sorts, and let her and the others see the change in him. Ultimately, forgiveness has to come from within the person doing the forgiving. it can’t be earned, and Spike knows it.
Sorry, JThunder.
(Thea has a real knack for misreading usernames)