Buffy 11/12/02 - Conversations with dead people

Cafe Society
61

As soon as I saw Spike feed I knew there would be some attempts made trying to explain why it didn’t happen (like right after the attempted rape).

However this may be a bit different. For one, it is not clear that Spike can harm humans yet (library fight). Although he did not hesistant to attack Anya when he had that shiny new soul of his.

Evidence for:

  1. Psych Vamp (newly sired) said Spike sired him
  2. Clear Visual evidence-- we watched Spike feed. There was plenty of red human blood.
  3. Spike is getting boring. Crazy is played out, and Angel 2.0 isn’t really an option. So what to do? A patch of evil (the last time Spike was fun was prior to him and Buffy hooking up) which would also allow for later redemtion or sacrifice (a Joss favorite).

Evidence against:

  1. May turn off the rabid fans (never stopped them in the past though . . .)

  2. The Chip.

  3. The soul.

  4. The mini-evil Spike acting as second banana to the Big Bad has been done as well.

The firm answer remains to be seen.

The episode was quite strong. The only things that were not clear to me were whether the Joyce ghost were real, and if so what the impact of her statement really was-- it is clear from 2 seasons ago that Buffy would let the world end before killing Dawn so it must be an unknowing choice. Still, sounds like a call for more Jr. Slayer training. When did Dawn learn magic?

The whole split them apart strategy was also done for the Adam showdown (which was shown on FX last night too) so it was interesting to see that come up again.

Score: 9/10.

Preview-age: “I hate playing vampire towns” Heh heh heh. . .

62

As soon as I saw Spike feed I knew there would be some attempts made trying to explain why it didn’t happen (like right after the attempted rape).

However this may be a bit different. For one, it is not clear that Spike can harm humans yet (library fight). Although he did not hesistant to attack Anya when he had that shiny new soul of his.

Evidence for:

  1. Psych Vamp (newly sired) said Spike sired him
  2. Clear Visual evidence-- we watched Spike feed. There was plenty of red human blood.
  3. Spike is getting boring. Crazy is played out, and Angel 2.0 isn’t really an option. So what to do? A patch of evil (the last time Spike was fun was prior to him and Buffy hooking up) which would also allow for later redemtion or sacrifice (a Joss favorite).

Evidence against:

  1. May turn off the rabid fans (never stopped them in the past though . . .)

  2. The Chip.

  3. The soul.

  4. The mini-evil Spike acting as second banana to the Big Bad has been done as well.

The firm answer remains to be seen.

The episode was quite strong. The only things that were not clear to me were whether the Joyce ghost were real, and if so what the impact of her statement really was-- it is clear from 2 seasons ago that Buffy would let the world end before killing Dawn so it must be an unknowing choice. Still, sounds like a call for more Jr. Slayer training. When did Dawn learn magic?

The whole split them apart strategy was also done for the Adam showdown (which was shown on FX last night too) so it was interesting to see that come up again.

Score: 9/10.

Preview-age: “I hate playing vampire towns” Heh heh heh. . .

63

Angry. Yes… angry.

They kill Jonathan, who I adored, who has been around since the second season.

And this whole Spike issue… you know, I really hate feeling messed with, and either way they end up going with this “spike is killing people” thing I’m going to.

64

… feel messed with (sorry, hit the submit button too soon).

If they put in all that work to get me so very interested in this character, just to turn him back into a minor l’il baddie to be dusted, I will stop watching the show. I give them 2 weeks to explain themselves.

Why yes, i am being pathetically whiny, and I know noone really cares whether or not I watch the show anymore… Joss just wants to play mind games with us.

65

How about making TETD = The Evil That’s Downstairs.

66

Okay, slow it down for us simple types, Thea - you are saying that because Spike smokes, but hasn’t been lately, and the woman at the bar tempted him with cigarettes, it is a clue that perhaps she was TETD (I decided that this must mean “The Evil that Devours” but what do I know) or an agent of TETD, leading him back down the path of bad things?

Let’s put it this way - if I am reading you correctly, and if Team Joss chose to pursue that angle, they could use that to make it work, but it still seems tenuous.

I am more inclined to go with classic Joss Whedon - what I think of as “counter-punching” - avoid plot cliches, and make the pain real - every time a zig is called for to play to the audience’s need for continued soap-opera-like allegiance to their favorite characters, be sure to zag. Spike has been a bad guy, and for all of the other roles he has assumed (comic foil, lover, part time Scooby) he is still at essence evil. Getting a soul can’t lead to the same place as it did for Angel, so why can’t he just be evil and this action establishes that? The use of silence was great for that, because it puts distance between us and a character we have come to love - no, we can’t have the Spike we like, he is truly evil, he is not talking to us in order to charm his way back into our hearts, and he does kill - now we have to deal with it.

I like the hard core absolutist, no turning back Whedon will take us to the edge and beyond aspect of that, even if I don’t want something to happen to a character I have come to depend on.

67

I sat quivering on the couch for at least 20 minutes after watching last night, and today I still haven’t figured out everything I want to about the episode. As much as I don’t care for Azura the actress, she was amazing as Cassie/Morphy; the final smile-turning-to-evil grimace reminded me of the one scary moment for me in The Cell, in the very beginning where the kid’s face goes all creepy (also like Bilbo going bad in FOTR). Cassie/Morphy showed how mainpulative and wily this season’s Big Bad really is, completely toying with Willow and trying to convince her to join Tara; at least, her performance manipulated me as a viewer.

Warren/Morphy was very well-done. I kept expecting Andrew to look back at him and see him all skinless. Man, Johnathan won me over with his “I care about the people we went to high school with” and as a result I thought it was perfect symmetry that he became the sacrifice.

I’m still up in the air on Spike. I’m torn between thinking that woman was Morphy, because he could bite and drain her, and not totally understanding who the hell SouledSpike really is and what he’s capable of. Perhaps all shall be answered next week. But probably not.

Despite the plundering of solid, established horror cliches, Dawn and Joyce/Morphy gave me some of the best chills I’ve had this year, beginning with the first flash to Joyce on the couch. And those dead, dead eyes keep coming back to me. Can someone tell me why “Mothers milk is red today” sounds so familiar?

So basically, Morphy targeted each person based on their emotional baggage and points of weakness: Willow with Tara, Buffy with Spike, Dawn with Buffy (and Dawn with Joyce), Andrew with his delusions of evil grandeur and need to belong to something (I’m still fuzzy on this one), and Spike with . . . what?

68

Slight nitpick: Spike did in fact turn that kid into a vampire. He was a vampire for, oh, about a minute before Buffy staked him. (The final scene of that episode was a conversation between Buffy and Giles as they waited over his grave for him to come out.) So pre-soul Spike has sired at least one vampire.

69

You know its a good acronym when it can mean the same thing with three different interpretations. :smiley:

Otherwise… Spike was never going to be Angel 2.0, and Spike fans wished this to be true. Maybe their wish came true.

TETD is coming out to be the baddest bad ever… I mean, even worse than a demonic god like Glory. But, I mean, what could be done here? Clearly there is a ceiling to the power of the slayer & co. IF this thing can transcend time and space, then hey, maybe it is time for evil to get the upper hand after all.

Notice we still don’t know what was up with the strange guys early on killing the girls? Maybe they are trying to perfect the slayer line in order to combat this thing…

70

Are we going to have to change the acronym TETD? Since it’s clearly no longer just Dwelling but Walking Among Us? :wink:

71

Anya saw the soul too, so there’s some confirmation.

72

We don’t know wht Anya saw. She knows it’s not impossible to get a soul (she knows who Angel is) and she knows it’s not imposible for a demon to have a soul (she has one herself.) So why would she be all shocked/excited over it?

73

I think you’re being optimistic – Buffy conversed with the dead psych major; Andrew conversed with the dead Warren; Willow conversed with the dead Cassie; Dawn conversed with the dead Joyce, and the blonde girl conversed with Spike, who’s been dead for 150 years. I think that was the real Spike, he’s somehow beaten the chip, and, soul or no, he’s back to his old tricks. (I, along with probably many of us, figured this all out when Buffy asked her vamp pal “How do you know Spike?” I actually said “Oh shit!” out loud while sitting there alone in my tv room.)

I’ve mostly loved every episode this season, and this was no exception. One thing I didn’t like was the death of Jonathan – I say to myself that this is because it didn’t respect the character; it seemed like it was driven by plot (writers: “We need a dead guy who’ll garner some sympathy – Oh! I know!”). Also, it kind of reduces the power of one of my favorite episodes, “Earshot.” Did Buffy save Jonathan in that ep. just so he could be killed a few years later? However, I think the real reason is that I’m just sad to see the poor guy go. I haven’t seen Season 6 (tho’ I know most of what happened in it), so my views on Jonathan are probably different than most everyone else’s.

–Cliffy

74

My boyfriend figured it out last night. Once he said it, it was obvious. He knows what TETD is; he told me, and it all clicked into place.

It’s Joss.

Who else knows all the baddies well enough to become them at will? Who else knows all the characters’ weaknesses? It explains everything; the “tired of balance” speech, the medallion in the basement…

Joss is coming, and boy is he pissed.

75

But Morphy was in the library… :sniggering:

I’m certainly no fan of Dawn, but I think Michelle T did a really good job in this episode. I also find your remarks about her hips a bit … disturbing.

Didn’t you see her sitting down with the book Exorcism for Dummies?:wink:

Also, now that we know some more we might want to remember the first appearence by Morphy and the monologue:

(Warren)“Of course she won’t understand, Sparky. I’m beyond her understanding. She’s a girl… she’s sugar and spice and everything… useless unless you’re baking… I’m more than that. I’m more than flesh…”

(Glory): “more than blood. I’m… you know, I don’t think there’s a human word fabulous enough for me! Soon my name will be on everyone’s lips, assuming they’re lips haven’t been torn off. But not just yet… but that’s alright, though…”

(Adam): “… I can be patient. everything is well within parameters. She’s exactly where I want her, and so are you number 17.” Adam looks down at a confused, listening Spike. “You’re right where you belong…”

(Mayor Wilkins): “So what dija think, you’d get your soul back and everything would be jim Dandy? A soul is slipperier than a greased weasil, why do you think I sold mine? Well, you probably thought you’d be your own man, and I respect that…”

(Drusilla) “But you never will… you’ll always be mine…” “you’ll always be in the dark with me, singing our little songs, you liked our little songs, don’t you? you always liked them, right from the beginning…”
“And that’s where we’re going”

(the Master): “Back back to the beginning. Not the Bang, not the Word, the true beginning. and the next few months are going to be quite a riot, and I think we’re all going to learn something about ourselves in the process. You’ll learn you’re a pathetic smuck, if it hasn’t sunk in already… Look at you, trying to do what’s right, just like her. You still don’t get it… it’s not about right… it’s not about wrong…”

(Buffy):… it’s about Power…"*

This, to me, supports the Devil theory. I’ll stick with Morphy being the Devil, till I know more.

Also – Morphy hasn’t used violence a single time yet. Just mindtricks.

76

With regard to the Psych-Vamp saying that Spike was his sire: the only evidence of that being true is that P-V said so. There is the strong possibility that he lied, what with being connected to the big evil and all.

77

WordMan- The cigarettes, along with the leather duster, (which has also been conspicuously absent, BTW, people on some of the Buffy boards are grieving over that damn coat). The first time we see Spike in “School Hard”, what is he doing? Lighting a cigarette. In “Becoming”, when he proposes the truce with Buffy, he lights a cigarette. Throughout the series, you will see Spike lighting a cigarette at particular moments, often when he’s either being thoughtful, or trying to cover up nervous tension. In “Gone”, his excuse for coming over to Buffy’s house, in the daylight, no less, is to retrieve his lighter. I could go on, but I think you get the picture. The cigarettes were part of his “Big Bad” identity. BTW, look for the duster to make a reappearance, but it won’t be Spike who’s wearing it.

I don’t think the woman who picked Spike up at the Bronze was TETD (and is there anyone left here who has any doubt that TETD is, in fact, The First Evil?), or even a knowing agent. She was just going to the bar, maybe just to have a drink, maybe looking to get shagged. But I think TETD did give her a nudge in Spike’s direction- playing the part of the devil on her shoulder, if you will. It was probably influencing her on a subconscious level. And so, yes, I think her placing a pack of cigarettes on the bar*directly in front of him * had more significance than her just needing to set down her smokes. Shot- close-up of Spike sipping a glass of whiskey, then of the bar, a hand places an open pack of cigarettes, camera pulls back and pans to the woman’s face.

Also, I think it was pretty clear from his behavior in the first four episodes that Spike desparately wants to, not be evil. It’s also obvious that TETD has been mindfucking him. It’s appeared to him as Buffy twice now. It’s playing both ends of his psyche against the middle- one one hand, feeding him useful information and allowing him periods of relative lucidity so he can fulfill his desire to help Buffy fight evil, on the other, it wants him to believe that he is irredeemably evil, so that he will, in fact, become irredeemably evil. TETD has some greater purpose in mind for Spike. It wants to use him for something, but what it wants to use him for hasn’t been made clear yet (unless you’re a spoiler whore like me who will seek out this information, but I’m not saying anything here more than speculation based strictly on watching the episodes aired thus far this season, as well as the last four of last season.)

Finally, [ego trip] I was predicting last summer that Spike would become this season’s Little Bad, although before I saw “Lessons” I figured Xander’s antagonism toward him would be the major factor, and I still think it is a factor, but not as strong of one as I thought it would be. I still think Dawn will be the Key factor in his redemption, and I do believe he will be redeemed well before the season is over. [/ego trip]

78

Enitrely possible. But then he’ll die. Either way, the last few years of Spike character development will feel pretty dang wasted to me. [/extreme bitterness]

79

Actually, Spike did sire Ford, Buffy’s old schoolmate. If you may recall, “Lie to Me” ended with Giles and Buffy talking at Ford’s gravesite, waiting for Ford to resurrect. When he did, Buffy rather casually staked him, then completed the conversation with Giles.

So Spike isn’t opposed to siring others - he may have done so before, but it just wasn’t important to the story, so it has never been mentioned.

Sua

80

JW committed one of my TV/film peeves. Spike was sitting at the bar, with a bottle of Jack Black. You often hear film folk walk up to a bar, order a shot, and say, "Leave the bottle."

Has anyone ever done that or seen someone do that IRL? How much would a bottle cost at per shot prices?

The only time I ever did that, was in a bar that was closing down while at college. The weekend they were shutting down, they were literally liquidating their stock. In the afternoon, we walked in and bought a bottle of bourbon. Our execrable softball team had finally won their first game, and we thought buying a bottle at a bar would be a cool thing to do. I forget the price, but it was just a few bucks. The bartender just picked some number out of the air.

And Gaspode - that scene where Dawny was shaking her thang while in the kitchen? Yeah, I found it disturbing - but in a good way!