Great - another acronym :rolleyes:
Really? The main reason I watch Buffy is because Joss messes with me so much. Television for masochists, that’s what it is.
Now if I could only get him to be my DM…
Daniel
I dunno Daniel, maybe if I felt that there was a reason behind the manipulation I wouldn’t be so cranky. Right now it just seems like manipulation for the sake of manipulation.
::shrug:: I fully admit that my opinions are far from rational and completely colored by what I want to happen.
Joss as a DM? Ye gods that would be fun …
OK, “Joyce” was TETD (I love the TET Devours interpretation, BTW). What the opposing force was, I have no idea, hopefully it will be revealed in a future episode.
My take on Andrew killing Jonathan, dual purpose. 1) TETD needed a sacrifice in order to come to its full strength. 2) Jonathan may have been a pathetic dweeb, but when push came to shove, he did actually have a pair of cajones. He would have come down firmly on the side of The Forces of Good, and thus needed to be gotten out of the way.
Andrew was by far the less mentally stable of the two remaining members of Troika. He is a closeted homosexual who was secretly in love with Warren, and also felt some homoerotic attraction to Spike. He doesn’t have the balls to come out and say, “Hey, I’m gay, if you have a problem with that, it’s your problem. Oh, and by the way, I think you’re pretty hot.” Also, he is constantly seeking approval from others (which is why he’s still in the closet) who finds his identity through association with other, stronger figures instead of finding it within himself. In other words, he was ripe for the plucking by TETD.
And I’m going to say it again. Please take notes.
** * SPIKE IS NOT EVIL. HE IS EITHER POSSESSED OR SO COMPLETELY MINDFUCKED BY TETD THAT HE IS NOT IN CONTROL OF HIS OWN ACTIONS. ** *
I’ve been predicting that Spike would be doing some very bad things under TETD’s influence since “Lessons”. I was predicting that he would be this season’s Little Bad back during summer hiatus. He was due for one last serious fall before his final redemption. We’re seeing it.
[sub] I’ve been saying it til I’m blue in the typing fingers. Why don’t you people listen?[/sub]
Because Spike isn’t the Little Bad. The First Evil is the little bad. THis next part is more spec than spoilery, but just so
WE’re going to meet the real Big Bad after ep 10.
Tey have a whole forumla and everything. Check it out at www.buffyformula.com
Well Thea, I guess you have more faith in Mutant Enemy than I do, 'cause I sure could see them going for the totally-evil Spikeness just to piss people off.
(Either that or you’re spoiled. Are you spoiled?)
Spike is evil. He himself said so, last season.
He may be possessed (assuming this to be true), but that doesn’t mean he’s not evil.
Spike may not be the LB, but he is definitely doing very bad things under the influence of TETD, so I was right about that much.
arisu, yes, I am spoiled, but anything I’m not putting in a black box is speculation drawn from episodes already aired. I don’t want to wreck anything for those of you who are not spoiler whores, so if I know something because I’ve seen a spoiler, I either keep it under my hat or put a spoiler tag on it.
pepperlandgirl, have you checked your e-mail today?
Yeah, I have. I plan on getting back to you later tonight, working on a paper about the SETI project right now. (Damned school. I’ve tried to explainto my profs that the Buffy-obession is more important, but they ain’t buying it.)
Uh, J Thunder, the whole point of the soul is that you are no longer evil. Or do you believe that Angel is as evil as Angelus? So far we have an entire fucking series based around the concept that the soul is the deciding factor between good and evil. Based on Cannon, the crazy, silent Spike of S7 is not evil. He’s a clean slate.
“I dropped my slate and the chalk all ran…”
So, here’s my theory on the TETD’s nature when it comes to the possession: It can manipulate dead people for it’s own purposes, but needs to control them. This would explain the Joyce situation – maybe TETD thought it had control of her, but when push came to shove her spirit wouldn’t just give in, hence the terror and the wind and the haunting.
Spike is being controlled because although he has a soul, it’s left him crazy and weak – easily maniuplated.
The shrink vampire was just killed, and perhaps was being manipulated by the TETD to get certain things out of Buffy, and make her doubt Spike’s goodness.
This would also explain why Willow was visited by Cassie instead of Tara. Tara was an extremely powerful witch in this life, and probably wouldn’t easily be used for the forces of evil. Cassie, as a newly dead spirit could perhaps be taken over easily.
I realize that part of the reason Tara wasn’t there was because they had trouble negotiating the contract, but they have to have a reason for her not being there, right? I think that until next week, this will probably be my explaination.
Balderdash. There are plenty of people in the Buffyverse who are evil, despite having souls.
Okay, I’ll grant that Spike might not be evil anymore, but that remains to be seen. We can’t claim that Spike isn’t evil, simply because he supposedly has his soul back.
I agree. After all, Spike has been a raving loony for most of the season to date. It should come as no surprise that we haven’t seen him puffing on a Marlboro as of late.
The Joyce that Dawn saw in “Conversations” was not her mother. It was Morphy. Morphy made it look as if it was trying to keep her from talking to her mother. Keeping her away made it look more believable and more important. Morphy is playing with her mind. What “Joyce” said sounded more believable because Dawn had to fight against evil to see her. Willow wised up with Morphy and saw through it. Morphy tried a different approach with Dawn and it worked really well. Dawn has always had doubts about her and Buffy and the BB is playing with it. He is playing with their PSYCHOLOGICAL states.
Side Note: I don’t think Spike’s chip works anymore. He is killing, but it is the BB that is controlling him. It’s his body, not his mind. I also think there are some clues (frying on the cross, “sweet release”) that he is going to sacrifice himself to save the world/Buffy. That is if the series end, and I am positive it will.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think you’re crazy at all; that’s exactly where I thought they were going. The giant goat’s head was the first sign, and then when Cassie started talking about being tired of “the eternal struggle,” or whatever the exact words were, my line of reasoning went like this: the show has, err, “borrowed” from comic book plots before, as Giles’ “Ripper” character is a direct rip-off, err, homage to the John Constantine character in Hellblazer. And the story of Lucifer deciding he doesn’t want to rule Hell anymore was done in a Sandman series called “Season of Mists.” Much of that storyline had the dead and living talking to each other and working together, which reminded me of the episode.
My opinion on the episode: great, great stuff with Dawn’s storyline. The bits with her mom on the couch were just about the most effective scary stuff I’ve ever seen on TV outside of “Twin Peaks.”
I really liked evil Cassie’s line to Willow about her suicide, having her lighting candles and listening to the Indigo Girls. Really mean-spirited, like I’d imagine Satan to be. But other than that I didn’t like that part of the story; I could see it coming a mile away. Like somebody else mentioned, I got the impression that it would’ve worked better had the real Tara been able to appear.
Buffy’s bit was cool enough, but I don’t think it really added much of anything except to set up the point that Spike’s back in business. All her rehashing of relationships and self-analysis; we’ve heard it all before, several times. Either get over it, or do something with it.
And I was really, really pissed as soon as it became clear that they were going to pull a Miss Calendar on Jonathan. Another waste of a good character. I hope he’ll be back in some capacity.
No, the point of the soul is that you can choose to be good or evil, not that you’re automatically good. That’s the reason they have the okay-to-kill-demons-and-vampires rule; because they have no soul they have no capacity for good. That’s also pretty much what the “entire fucking series” of “Angel” is about.
Well, the contract that was signed when Buffy switched stations says that if Buffy ever gets cancelled due to ratings or similar things, it will revert back to the original station.
I wish I could remember which is which.
For what it’s worth, my girl said during Cassy (short for Cassandra, the ancient prognosticator… love it!) little speech about balances and such that the BB is going to be Glory. I asked her why, and she had no clue why, but she’s firmly convinced.
Great Buffy, regardless.
…the ancient prognosticator who was cursed to make accurate predictions that nobody would listen to, IIRC.
This is shaping up to be a great season of Buffy, Minimal Spikeage notwithstanding.
Clem is still missing, though. Where is Clem? I want to see Clem!!!
[somethingblue2u], I really don’t think Spike is going to die this season. It seems like such a waste to completely tear a character down and rebuild him from the ground up only to dust him.
The Cross in Christian theology is as much a symbol of love, forgiveness, and redemption as it is of sacrifice. My reading of the Spike frying on the cross scene was him seeking L, F & R, only to be “burned” (they put the spark back in, but all it does is burn). Remember the end of his speech, as he was approaching the cross (as a symbol of love and forgiveness) “And she will look on him with forgiveness and everyone will forgive and love, and he will be loved) and, as he draped himself on the cross (can we rest now, Buffy? Can we rest now?”) He was embracing the cross, not hanging from it.
However, if Joss the Great and Powerful does decide that the Peroxided One must cease to be, I think I would like to see him go out sacrificing himself to save the world. No, scratch that, I want to see him go out saving Dawn. ("'Till the end of the world. Even if that happens to be tonight") His failure to protect Dawn was a major issue for him during the early parts of S6. I’d like to finally see him resolve that.
Oh, BTW, the goat’s head in the pentagram is not a Satanic symbol, even though it has been interpreted that way, and adopted by some Satanic groups.
It’s the symbol of the god Baphomet, who was one of the pagan deities worshipped in pre-Christian western Europe and Britain, IIRC. I forget specifically what he was the god of.
Woah woah woah-- just because you have a soul doesn’t mean you can’t be evil. Hitler, Stalin et al had souls-- but clearly were evil (probably ended up in a really nice hell dimension). But just because your soul is back doesn’t mean you cannot do evil things. Rather you should feel bad about them or something.
Is this your impression or hope? By the four corners of the episode there was no evidence of this at all. If you have firm Spoiler evidence I will take your word, of course. Seems to be a lot of wishful thinking around the Spike character though. My hope-- they let it ride- and Evil Scene Chewing Spike returns. Woot!
The really interesting question to me is whether Joyce was real or the Big Bad doing the split them apart thing.
Next week should help clear things up alot, especially re: Spike. Now to just avoid spoilers till then.
TETD set itself up for its own demise & it will be at the hands of our boy Jonathan.
He is at a state of moral clarity, emotional empathy, pure enlightenment & good-will, is stabbed IN THE SIDE by A CLOSE FRIEND, collapses in a CRUCIFORM POSE while his BLOOD is absorbed into the Satanic Seal.
It wanted an innocent sacrifice but it doesn’t realize it’s now tainted itself with Righteous Blood- Righteous Blood that at the critical moment will reassert itself with a vengeance!
BtVS & Joss have this cat&mouse relationship with C’nity- they can’t AFFIRM it but any show with the theme of blood & immortality can’t get away from it.