Sorry for the typos-- I need coffee badly.
A theory:
Since it is looking like the final season of Buffy, how do they end it? Here’s a thought. Would killing the demon that created Vampires to begin with destroy the Vampires, ending the need for a Slayer?
Exactly. What’s the point if they don’t cry?
I think that was the Council headquarters that blew up. (Though that was the lamest-looking SFX on the show since that snake thing in Season 5.) Like so many others, I don’t see the point to showing the explosion otherwise. And if we’re right and the Council is so much confetti and scattered masonry, remind me to send Joss flowers. I hate those stuffy bastids.
Gotta tell you, SMG does Evil Badass much better than she does Righteous Heroine. Must be left over from her soap opera days.
[sub][sup]She believes in him! Can I get an AMEN?[/sub][/sup]
Homebrew: I don’t think ME would go down that road, seeing as how that’s a big chunk of Anne Rice’s vampire mythos. If Joss were to rip off the climax of Queen of the Damned, I think many people would be justifiably upset.
Gaah! Another crappy-looking movie ruined for me! 
Daniel
that’ll do, pig – tee hee!
If you wre the first Evil and you had to drain somebody andyou had a choice between a whiny jerk (Andrew) nobody cares about or the guy who is obviously close to the Slayer in more ways than one, which one would you run with? Go for the pain. If Spike dies, it will hurt the SG. They need his muscle and Buffy has feeeeeeelings for him—so much so that when he kills people, she ties him up in her bedroom. And She. Believes. In. Him. (Amen!)
Yep, if I was the FE, I’d go for the crippling blow because A)It’s smarter and B)It’s more fun. Plus, in the process, it got to destroy more of the Summers’ home.
In the comic book that ME does call Fray, an unnamed 21st Century Slayer somehow manages to close all the Hellmouths, which kills all the demons, thus destroying the need for a Slayer. This comic is set several centuries in the future when the need is back…
Andrew had a line about asparagus, or it sounded like he said asparagus, but I missed it. Can someone post it?
Loved Dawn’s kicking some ass at first then making a rookie mistake and getting caught. It shows that she’s someone who’s in training but not instantly experienced. Loved the “good cop/bad cop” routine with Xander and Anya. Loved Xander’s discussion of how “some guy’s” heart was pulled out and replaced with darkness–wonder if Anya overheard that? Loved Andrew’s dreamy “Patrick Swayze” reference and the encounter between poser-badass Andrew and actual badass Willow. Loved Principal Wood’s enigmatic trip to the basement. I still think he’s a Watcher in disguise and that he, Giles and Faith are going to play a major part in the season finale, which I think will end with Buffy either dead or retired and Dawn’s being called as the next Slayer with Wood as her Watcher.
Hated the revelation that TFE is the BB, and with all due respect I think I was the first one here to suggest it (but I won’t argue the point). Wee had it figured out months ago so the revelation just wasn’t very revelatory. Hated the “Spike’s addicted to blood” riff. Everything’s a blummin’ addiction with these people! Oh help me, I’m addicted to oxygen!
I thought TFE’s reference to “Iron Fist” was a Marvel Comice reference, since I don’t read Star Wars novels. Works both ways and the Marvel reference is even geekier than an SW reference.
Did anyone else think that TFE’s minions were targeting Dawn and Andrew along with snatching Spike? I figured they were gunning for Dawn as a proto-Slayer and Andrew maybe for revenge.
Not sure how I feel about the whole “you’ve changed and are trying to be a better person so all that killing and torture and junk you’ve been doing for the past century is rather forgotten and forgiven” riff. Not quite sure how to express how I’m feeling about it. Like, it’s a legit reason not to stake him but it’s not really? It’s kind of tied up with my feelings about the death penalty. Spike deserves to die for what he’s done but is there such a thing as “parole” for a vampire?
I think it’s interesting that no one knows why it is Spike was known as “William the Bloody” and use the name like it’s descriptive of his vampiric state when the opposite is true.
Willow wasn’t a real bad ass in that scene with Andrew. She’s tougher than Andrew, but that’s like saying she’s a better action hero than Don Knotts. She was acting just like he was, only behind her acting is a bit more oomph. She couldn’t keep her game face on after delivering her “she-witch” reply. Still, an excellent scene.
I agree that Buffy’s reasons for not staking Spike don’t work as a parole for Spike. IMO, it only works if she’s doing it for herself. Like she needs to prove to herself that people can change, if Spike can really become a good person after all he’s done, than so can Buffy.
If Spike makes so much more sense as the blood donor to recreate the first vamp, then why go with Babe and the butcher blood? The FE was fine with either of those until Andrew screwed up. It felt like a silly plot device.
The Watchers are gone. But Giles will be back. If they do try a spin-off it could be a new group of folks rebuilding the Watchers or building a new institution to carry on the fight. What would the world be without a source of Evil? And more importantly, how would Angel continue on WB?
While I hadn’t thought about Principal Wood being from the Watchers, it makes sense. I think burying Jonathan was meant to be a misdirection for the audience, just like Spike going off to get his soul was done as a redirection.
I think Clem coming up out of the pit with a bag of chips would have been a much better ending. The Floppy Skinned Bringer of Snack Foods! All are doomed!
That’s part of a running joke about Andrew. He is such a lame loser that no one remembers him from high school. At all. No matter what he does. As follows…
BUFFY: (frowns) Who are you?
ANDREW: Andrew.
Buffy shrugs and shakes her head to show her lack of recognition.
ANDREW: I summoned the flying monkeys that attacked the high school?
Willow and Buffy exchange a confused look.
ANDREW: During the school play, you know?
WARREN: It’s Tucker’s brother.
JONATHAN: Yeah, it’s Tucker’s brother.
BUFFY/WILLOW: Ohh.
Tucker was a loser too. He was the guy who brainwashed Hell Hounds using videos of Pump of the Volume and Carrie to attack people wearing formal wear. His grand scheme was to “unleash” the Hell Hounds on the prom because he asked a girl to go to the prom with him and she said: “No.” He was incompetant, but even he was more memorable than Andrew.
I think the “addiction to blood” riff was in reference to human blood. All parties concerned know that blood is a vampire’s natural food. Plus, I think by the time we got to this episode, Spike hadn’t eaten in a couple of days.
I don’t think the Harbingers were targeting Dawn-she just got in the way. If they’d really been out to kill her, they would have gotten to her sooner. Dawn is the Key, and I think this will resurface later in the season. They were definitely out to kill Andrew, though- that was kind of the point of TFE Spike showing up, to sic Spike on Andrew to keep him from talking. I think TFE is realizing it has made too opposing mistakes- choosing too strong a vessel- Spike, who, it turns out it could only control up to a certain point. His will and his love for Buffy were ultimately too strong for it, and choosing too weak a vessel - Andrew, whose bowels turned to water when faced with being slapped around by Anya. TFE’s motivation for wanting to kill Andrew wasn’t revenge, it was simply throwing away a useless tool.
Also, I don’t think I would have been terribly upset with Buffy if she’d staked Spike at some point in either “Sleeper” or “Never Leave Me”- Spike himself all but begged her to do it. He was a danger. But if you want to follow the line of logic that Spike deserves to die, either for past sins, or because of what he did under TFE’s control, then Angel also should have been staked- during the first season.
This view confuses me. What the hell does he have to do? He fights for his soul to be a better man—to be a man—chooses to win it no matter what, is horrified by what he has been made to do, begs for death so he doesn’t have to kill again, and he’s still nt going to be redeemed?
Does Willow deserve to die? Anya? Buffy? Xander? Giles? If not, why not? Because they saved the world a few times—well, Spike sure helped save the world a few times–once in the same season he ws the Little Bad. Because they are the heroes? Buffy herself said that it doesn’t work that way when Faith tried to argue that the cosmic scales are still in their favor–and she argued it when Spike said it too. Because they have smaller body count—is one person worth less than 10? 100? 1000? What’s the line? When do we decide someone needs to die for taking a life…is there a magic number? Why would a being whose one reason for existing be to killed–we’ve been told over and over that they are soulless things who don’t know any better—even be held accountable? does that make it less or more important that he loved somebody enough to get a soul so he would never hurt her again?
Otto, I do not expect you to answer these questions, and I don’t even want to get into thie argument again. (See last Buffy thread). It’s just ME and Whedon have been doing a pretty thorough job of graying things up, making questionable moral choices, asking the viewer to deal with it all somehow.
Just wanted to mention how much I loved the NYPD Blue parody, including the “break room” discussion (“How you doing with your guy?”) and Anya doing the full Sipowicz “You lying son of bitch” beatin’.
Coupla nits, mostly minor.
Really disliked that the building explosion was a different shot than the one introducing the watchers’ scene. Rewound a couple of times. Either intentionally ambiguous or horribly sloppy.
Jonathan said he did not have enough blood - and was anemic. So they replace him with a pig that weighs - what - ten pounds? No need to lose continuity so much so quickly for som admittedly good laughs.
Wood clearly has some magical powers. He went int the asement, hauled J out of the hole and into his car, dug a grave, and dumped J in, without scuffing his dress shoes or getting his pants dirty!
Other than that - enjoyable ep.
What previous eps were the eyeless guys in? (Previous seasons.)
Yeah. It’s been well established that a vampire with a soul is not the same thing as that vampire without a soul. They’re related, of course – uncomfortably closely related, if Angel is to be believed. But I think the difference is this: a vampire, sans soul, is an agent of evil. Not always an active agent, perhaps. Not necessarily effective, or always busy plotting overarching acts of evil. But they’re demons with a (frequently) human face, and they’re not the nice Clemmy/Whistleresque non-evil demons.
A vampire with a soul is no longer an agent of evil. They’re not necessarily an agent of good, either – but the choice to become one is there. Acts performed as a regular vampire no longer count against them in the “let’s stake 'em” category because they aren’t the same entity anymore – it’s the ultimate insanity defense, in a way. Vampires with souls aren’t redeemed – at least, not according to the Force of Good that leaves 'em susceptible to crosses and holy water – but they’re not inherently evil. Although they can choose to be, because as we’ve seen, souls don’t make one inherently good.
Spike and Angel are both interesting cases. Angel didn’t want or expect to get his soul back, and he’s had a difficult time figuring out exactly what having one means. He didn’t stop hanging with Darla and co., and in fact (as I recall) killed some humans after regaining his soul, until that became too much for him. But he certainly wasn’t Angelus the architect of evil anymore, either.
Spike chose to get a soul – because the chip and his relationships with the Scoobies (especially Buffy and Dawn, of course) forced him into a situation where that was an attractive option. I’m not negating the courage of making that decision, but it’s not something he would’ve chosen of his own free will without the presence of the chip. I like Spike, but I’m not enough of a fan to think he’s been redeemed – but he’s made himself redeemable, which is pretty damn impressive, as it is.
On this episode: Spike’s all bound up and tortured just like Angel used to be. I find it rather droll that he continues to follow in the footsteps of his Yoda, even as he sometimes improves upon them while making the path his own.
Amends in S3. (The episode I won’t rant about, except to say that that much snow would not block out the sun.)
Oooh, I forgot to mention how much I love and admire Interrogation!Anya. I want to be her. And I hope they settle down with her hair and stick with this cut and color for a while–it looks great on her.
I’m thinking that Jonathen’s blood was still “active”, so they just needed a little more. That’s why it didn’t take a lot of Spike’s blood to open it.
Hey – Willow was dead back in “Halloween” – can the First impersonate her?
Also, I’m glad to see Quentin Travers survived the explosion and got a job on President Palmer’s staff after shedding his British accent.
Actually, I don’t think the pig was intended as a sacrificial victim. I think it was something for Andrew to practice killing on. When he was at the butcher shop, he bought eight quarts of pig’s blood, I think that was intended to raise the Uber Vamp, but, quite honestly, I don’t think that would have done the trick either. I’m gonna say it again, it’s the quality of the blood. The more powerful the being it comes from, (and, hell, maybe the fresher, too) the more efficaceous toward raising Uber Vamp. So, pig’s blood, eight quarts. Human blood, amount undetermined, but probably a quite a bit less than eight quarts, but more than anemic Jonathan was able to bleed onto the stone. Slayer blood, probably a lot less- remember, the Master didn’t need to drain Buffy to free himself from his mystical prison, I think he drank, what, a cupful? (You have fruit punch mouth). So, the blood of a vampire powerful enough to kill two Slayers? A little dab’ll do ya, although it probalbly would have taken a coupla pints of Spike’s blood to raise the UV if Jonathan’s blood hadn’t already been spilled on the stone seal, rather than what looked to be maybe a half pint, give or take a couple of ounces.
So, lemme guess, I’d say this time out Buffy will not be able to send The First Evil packing by saying, “Alright, I get it, you’re evil”.
Oh, and Otto, William the Bloody the original identity/moniker of Spike’s vampiric self. It started off as a cruel joke by his “friends” - being called William the Bloody because he was such a bloody awful poet, but he carried it over. The nickname “Spike” came along later. Which actually gives Anya’s saying “How do we know that William the Bloody isn’t back” a double meaning. How do we know that William the Bloody (Awful Poet) isn’t back?
And when Spike was giving Buffy the “do you have any idea what I’m capable of?” speech, was it my imagination, or was he implying that he was in the habit of raping his female victims while he drank their blood (because it’s no fun if they don’t scream… Do you know what I’ve done to girls Dawn’s age?) He feels pain about that at least as much as he does about his attempted rape of Buffy- it’s the one crime he can’t name out loud, and I think actually being able to do so is going to be instrumental in his redemption. I do hold with those who say that just because Spike has his soul back doesn’t mean he’s redeemed. I predicted last summer that now that he has it back, he has a tougher row to hoe. But the boy’s well on his way. And he’s a real boy now.
I actually think that was the moment when TFE knew it had lost control of Spike. It still had some hold on him at the end of “Sleeper”, when he thought Buffy was going to kill him, and he opened his jacket and sadly said “Do it quick, OK?”
But when he flat out told her, “You have to kill me”, and started listing reasons why, then toward the end seemed to be trying to provoke her into staking him, TFE pretty much knew that Spike’s period of employment with it was at an end. It knew then that Spike preferred death, as in being reduced to ashes death, to working evil for it anymore. Oh, and I have a feeling Harbingers are supernatural entities, possibly with powers of teleportation- but they do like to make an entrance, hence the broken windows.