I’m glad you confirmed that. We were watching 24 and my sis said “Hey that guy survived the explosion” Then she realized that the explosion was on the show before. It was the goofy laugh of the evening. We were about 90% sure it was the same guy.
At first, I thought it was build up. First TFE gets him to kill a pig, then TFE has him kill a bigger smarter animal (dog or cat, say), and finally Andrew can kill random humans without any ethical problems (I think there were a few lingering, especially with people he had no beefs against (unlike Jonathan, who he resented)). I might have been projecting, though.
Actually, I think TFE didn’t use Spike’s blood at first because it wanted to use him to create an army of ready-made minions for the UV in preparation for its rising. Andrew was the instrument for bringing in the sacrificial victims to provide the blood necessary to rais the UV. When Andrew wussed out and was ready to talk to the Scoobies, it triggered Spike to kill him so he wouldn’t reveal its Big Plan. When Spike as good as said out loud that he’d rather die than go back to being a killer, TFE realized it couldn’t control him anymore and decided to kill two birds with one stone- punish Spike and get the blood needed to raise the UV- from Spike.
I have a feeling that next time we see Spike, he’s going to be in a world of hurt- literally.
And next time, will be next year…
If there’s something six previous seasons of Buffy has taught me, it’s that Joss is the master of misdirection. I don’t know if I beleive in The Buffy Formula, but if it works during this season, then TFE is the Little Bad, and Über Vamp will be dead next episode, just being a diversion.
When TFE manifests itself, as Morphy, it has no power of it’s own. All evil must be done by other beings. I guess it’s by tempting them, that TFE tips the scale in favour of evil.
I’m still unsure about Morphy, though. I checked Amends and wrote down dialogue that seemed pertinent (bolding mine):
(Giles about TFE) Absolut Evil. Older than man. Older than demons.
(Giles about hooded guys)* They’re known as the Bringers or Harbingers. They’re high priests of the First. They can conjure spirit manifestations an set them on people.
Influence them. Haunt them.
You can’t fight the First, Buffy. It’s not a physical being.*
(Morphy as Jenny Calendar to Angel)
This is what you are, this is why we brought you back.
(Morphy as Jenny Calendar to Buffy)
Hm. You think you can fight me?
I’m not a demon little girl.
I am something you can’t conceive.
(Buffy) The first Evil.
(Morphy)* Beyond sin. Beyond death.
I am the thing that darkness fears.
You’ll never see me, but I’m everywhere.
Every being, every thought, every drop of hate.*
And in this week’s episode, Morphy as Buffy says: It’s about time we brought some authority to our presence
I hereby put to you, that Morphy is not TFE, but just manifestations done by the Harbingers. That’s the reason for the occasional we. Morphy speaks from the collective mind of the Harbingers. We haven’t seen TFE, and my guess is - we never will.
As for other things -
The debate about Spike and if he should be punished just seems silly. The show is not about the fight between good and evil. It’s about the evil things in good people, and the good parts in evil people. How we, when we live, have to ballance that scale every day. The thing about Spike is that he’s supposed to make us think about these things. And you guys fall for it all the time. He’s really just a McGuffin.
pepperlandgirl
Not to “argue” or anything, but if you believe that ME has “grayed things up” on the moral questions, then why are you behaving like you have The Right Answer?
Thea Logica
Um, yeah, I know that. You know that. Buffy et. al. don’t which is what prompted my comment. I even know that he’s called “Spike” because he tortured his victims with railroad spikes.
Actually, Buffy, in fact, does know that. Spike himself told her in “Fool for Love”, and she more than likely passed the info along to the Scoobies at some point when the cameras weren’t watching. You know, take that Big Bad image down a notch or two…
And I wouldnl’t be surprise if it was revealed that he got the nickname Spike for, uh, other reasonsl…
and I really, really should wet down my soft contact lenses more often so I can see if my posts need correcting before I hit “submit”
Thea, the audience doesn’t know for sure if BUffy heard the same story we saw. We only know 100% for sure that Giles referred to him as William the Bloody in School Hard.
I personally cannot see Spike revealing to Buffy the rather humiliating circumstances of his siring, or the real reason for his moniker.
If things are grayed up, then I don’t think anybody can say “Spike deserves to die” because that type of statement, IMHO, no longer has a place in context of the main characters of the show.
Let’s compare some of the comments from Amends to what we’ve seen this season.
(Giles about hooded guys) They’re known as the Bringers or Harbingers. They’re high priests of the First. They can conjure spirit manifestations an set them on people.
Influence them. Haunt them.
Lessons
SPIKE
Manifest spirits controlled by a talisman, raised to seek vengeance. A 4-year-old could figure it.
Amends
This is what you are, this is why we brought you back.
Grave
We return your soul.
Amends
(Morphy as Jenny Calendar to Buffy)
Hm. You think you can fight me?
I’m not a demon little girl.
I am something you can’t conceive.
Conversations with Dead People
Fact is, the whole good-versus-evil, balancing the scales thing—I’m over it. I’m done with the mortal coil. But believe me, I’m going for a big finish.
WILLOW
From beneath you, it devours.
CASSIE
(leans back) Oh, not it. Me.
I can. Even without a soul, Spike did, on occasion, let the Big Bad front down and let the audience, and the other characters, see the rather vulnerable whatever it is he was that he was.
Also, at the end of "Fool for Love, after Buffy threw the cash down at him, saying “You’re beneath me”, he was obviously hurt, almost to the point of tears. I don’t think he would have been so hurt if he hadn’t revealed as much of himself as we saw in the flashbacks, at least the ones prior to the scene with Dru and the chaos demon in South America. I really think that this was the first time in the series we saw Spike being completely honest, and he was doing it for more than just cash.
The point is to release Greeny so it can kill.
If they were hung up on getting an unwilling sacrifice, the Harbingers could have gotten- students from the school, nameless vamps from around town(The Judge’s first kill was a vamp who possessed human traits and was definitely unwilling), etc.
Waiting for Spike seems like an unnecessary stall and plot device to keep Greeny from showing too early.
Re-Woods
Obviously, he’s up to something. But, I agree we don’t know whose side he’s on. One Doper mentioned he buried Johnathan elsewhere. I thought he simply dug that pathetically shallow grave(although maybe that was a last dig at Johnathan ‘His death, like his life, was pathetic and shallow’) right in the basement.
Re-Watchers
I agree that they probably started as a Scooby gang, then took control. Slayers have all kinds of abilities. But the CoW has libraries and contacts. Plus, ( When W&H hired Faith to kill Angel, Wes established this), the Council includes numerous powerful mages. Among other things, the CoW has alchemists who can produce gold as needed. This kind of thing comes in handy not only fighting the forces of evil, but paying Slayer’s bills, bribing the police etc.
Re-The First Evil
Hmm, TFE predates everything. It is immensely powerful, convincing, seductive, smart, and cannot truly be killed.
The First Evil is . . . Rutger Hauer!
His portrayal of Lothos predates the series. No matter how many movies Rutger dies in, he always returns. Smart-check. Convincing-check. Seductive- LadyHawke anyone? Check. So, in Buffy’s final episode, Rutger appears and kills everyone.
Re-Redemption
The hotter a person is, and the better they can act, the more chance they have for redemption. Willow could commit genocide and still be redeemable. This is because Hannigan can act, looks good in leather, and there’s always a chance we’ll see more witch on witch action.
When I see Anya in a group situation I kind of wonder “Why is she there? Nobody there officially likes her, so why does she hang out with them? Why do they let her hang out with them?” Buffy is quick to kill her, Willow has no love for Anya, Xander broke up with her, Spike banged her one drunk night… why does she hang around these people???
I do find her funny though, and a quick Anyaism can brighten any atmosphere.
Um, actually Spike is the only character who genuinely likes Anya. I think Xander enjoyed boning her, but in the end, the relationship was pretty shallow. Mostly, he just found her annoying, same as everyone else. In “Triangle”, when Xander and Spike were having an honest-to-Joss friendly chat, it was apparent that Spike saw what Xander saw in Anya, and maybe more. And, in “Where the Wild Things Are”, Spike’s attempt to rob Anya by putting on his game face and scaring her goes awry when he realizes that the person he is trying to rob is, in fact, Anya, and the game face melts away, as he is genuinely pleased to see her, and they go off to the ill-fated party together.
So, Spike banged her once, but for him it was just a bonus, plus the mutual comfort-seeking thing, but I actually think a soulless Spike/Anya relationship would have more going for it in terms of a real mental and emotional connection than Anya/Xander ever did.
And I still think the real reason Anya was so eager to stake Spike this week is because Spike wouldn’t stake her last week…
I think the Morphy the First Evil is the red herring!! Someone even more sinister is lurking to be the real big bad, someone Buffy cannot fight–Xander.
Wel golly, sorry, but in the context of the show, Spike indeed IMHO deserves to die. He’s killed, what, tens of thousands of people over the last hundred years? And that’s probably on the conservative side. In the context of a piece of fiction on television, the vampire has earned a stake. Anya probably deserves to die as well. Xander’s death-worthiness is more in question IMHO because the deaths he caused were unintentional. Willow IMHO doesn’t deserve to die because of the mitigating circumstance of her temporary insanity. Giles doesn’t deserve to die based on his actions being for the vastly greater good. Buffy doesn’t deserve to die because any time she’s killed a human it’s been in defense of herself and/or others. Angel? Deserves death but has that whole “will be a key player in the Apocalypse” prophecy thing going for him.
Is there a magic number that one must save that suddenly means that Spike or any other fictional mass murderer is “redeemed” and off the hook for his actions? Not IMHO. Do his actions since being chipped (or even before being chipped, since he did help Buffy save the world once albeit for purely selfish reasons) or souled relieve him of responsibility for his previous century of heinous acts? Not to me. But does he deserve the chance to continue trying to make up for them, even if it turns out there’s no possible way he ever can? I don’t know. That’s why I posted as I originally did. I’m not claiming any moral absolutism here or that the thing isn’t in grey for me too. But to say, whatever the context, that a vampire who’s killed as many people as Spike has killed wouldn’t deserve it if he were staked seems like that’s the statement of absolutism which IMHO is unsupportable.
Thea, I don’t think that Spike told Buffy the story of his humiliation and being sired. He was upset at the end of the ep because by some bizarre coincidence a second woman whom he loved used the same words to reject him as the first one did. He got as upset as he did simply because although he hadn’t told Buffy he had still recently thught abut it, maybe for the first time in a long time. There does have to be a reason why he shed “William” for “Spike” as quickly as he did.
But nobody argued that Spike should be staked, untill he started killing again, during this season. He had a chip installed and lived off pig’s blood (with weetabix!).
At the same time, Buffy’s killed hundreds of vampires who never hurt anyone. She stalks by the grave and stake them just when they’re rising. The slayer’s job is to prevent further damage by the “forces of evil”, not being judge, jury and executioner. Spike was under the influence and Anya stopped being a demon. Buffy thinks (right or wrong) that they don’t impose an immediate threat. Whn she killed Angel, she showed us that she can indeed make these choices, when needed. If there really was a reason to dust Spike - she would.
So, what do you guys think of Spike’s thoughts on her preferences in men?
What does Anya do for a living? The loot from the bankrobbery? Someone like her, with her desire for money, just bumming around? And what happened to everyday life? Buffy got a part time job at SHS. But supporting herself, Dawn and paying the bills on a fairly large suburban house can’t be payed on that salary. She had to work full time at Double Meat Palace to make ends meet. And there’s been no training. Willow has had to little screen time. I feel the same way about Will, as some girls her feels about Spike. So she’s studying - but no classes, nothing.
Xander seems to be spending more time repairing Buffy’s House, than on an actual construction site.
BTW - I like Anya’s new hair, but I still find her totally annoying - and always have.
Anya hangs with the rest of the SG, for the same reason Cordy did, when she didn’t like them or they her. Outside pressure forces them together.
I still think the buildings arent’t the same.
Also, some people think tihs young man looks like Mr. Finn.
Yeah, the buildings don’t look the same. Maybe they just messed up. Also, the guy doesn kinda look like Riley. That would be really cool if he came back as a vampire. Unfortunatly, I don’t think that will happen. But we can wish.
anya is living off an excellent insurance settlement 