Ayup. And I agree with brondicon on why Buffy wasn’t fighting back really hard.
Also, I am totally in Barbarian’s camp. I completely agree with everything you said - you put my exact thoughts and feelings on the matter into words … thank you.
Here’s my take on the Buffy-Spike Scene.
All of their sexual escapades start off with Buffy saying no, and Spike not listening to her. All he has to do is get past her initial reluctance and as soon as she “feels” him, then they have rough, bestial, animalistic sex.
The very first time they have sex, the scene at the Bronze, even the time at her house where Tara walks in and comments on his “muscle spasm”, they are all the same. You want me Buffy, No I don’t Spike, yes you do… they struggle a little, then they have sex.
This time started the same. Her “I’m hurt” comment can just as easily be replaced with “I’m not in the mood, I have a headache, You’re evil, I don’t love you” it’s a excuse to not even begin the “pre-sex argument/struggle thing they do”. This time, things don’t go as Spike planned, she really does mean No, and he doesn’t like it. He repeatedly says, “you can feel it when I touch you. I just want to make you feel it”.
They’ve both been in this situation before, only this time, Buffy really has no intention of having sex with him, and he has no intention of walking away just because she says no. (She’s been saying no since day one.) He just got lost in the “all I have to do is get past her initial resistance” phase of their sex play, and she doesn’t put her defenses up until it’s almost too late.
I agree that Buffy can kick Spike’s ass with one hand tied behind her back, when she’s going in expecting a fight. We’ve all seen her almost get wiped out by a fledgling vamp, or get the crap kicked out of her by someone she should have been able to beat easily. Combine the fact that she was already hurt, her guard was down, and she wasn’t expecting Spike to full on try to rape her and yes, Spike got the upper hand.
I took it as a lesson, if it can happen to Buffy…
Am I the only one that thought Spike already pretty much raped Buffy in that scene at the Bronze? I mean, if that wasn’t date rape, I don’t know what is.
This whole “Joss killed Tara 'cause she’s a lesbian” hubub reminds me of a similar hullaballoo about Neil Gaiman’s Sandman storyline called A Game of You. Now, I’m not going to recap it all, but the most sympathetic character in the story was a preoperative transsexual (she was scared of any surgery), and, in the end, she was the only major character to die. Someone of some note in the comics world, I’m sorry, but I can’t remember exactly who (Caitlin R. Kiernan?), wrote an essay putting forth the idea that Gaiman was sending a strange message by killing this “alternative lifestyles” character (nevermind that in the same storyline a lesbian couple totally didn’t die). Gaiman’s response was pretty much that only by killing Wanda (the transsexual’s name) would the story be a tragedy. Ditto with Joss & co. They killed Tara because Tara’s death would be the most affecting to the viewership, unless they wanted to kill one of the three that’ve been with us since the beginning. Plus, now we get to see Willow being all sexy with black hair…
I agree. Tara and Willow (Willow’s addiction aside–esp. since she seemed to be past it) had the most beautiful, affecting relationship on the show. So I don’t think Joss killed them b/c they were lesbians, but rather because they had a lovely, pure relationship. That bastard.
And Barbarian nailed Andrew’s situation exactly. I think the ep. turned the ongoing “Andrew is a little bit gay” jokes on their head:
This was patently NOT played for laughs, IMO. It purposefully falls flat, because now his unrequited love for this maniac (Warren) whom he followed into crime is clearly so tragic.
Jezus Christ, andygirl, take a chill pill. Or a dozen.
Was Inca Mummy Girl broadcasting the message that a guy’s Dream Girl is inevitably a mass murderer? Was Buffy’s tossing Angel into Hell part of the long-standing tradition of “must kill the boyfriend because clearly a heterosexual couple shouldn’t be happy”? When Buffy died, was it a comment on her sexuality?
Let’s face it. If a Scooby must die, Tara was the obvious choice. Kill Anya? Who’d give a rat’s ass? Kill one of the Original Trio? That’d damage the chemistry and balance of the show ('sides, they’ve already done . Kill Dawn? Admittedly, perhaps a possibility, but in the context of the show, that would likely make Buffy become the Big Bad, and they’ve already done an Evil Slayer. Spike? I don’t think his death would as deeply affect the Scoobies.
Tara was the necessary combination of sympathetic character and plot advancement and not integral to the show. Her sexuality had nothing to do with that.
You do a real disservice to Whedon and Noxon. For over two years, they have provided probably the best presentation of a homosexual couple (male or female) as a loving, complicated, sexual, intimate and normal couple ever on broadcast television, but now they’re homophobes because they killed off a part of that couple? That’s ridiculous and insulting.
What should the rule be - “Don’t kill the lesbians”? Treat those characters as different from everybody else? Is that a good thing?
Sua
Well, Yes with a But…
True, Whedon and Noxon are to be commended for their portrayal of the W/T relationship. But on TV, it’s the only loving, normal gay relationship, and now it’s gone. They’re not homophobes, far from it, but I can sympathize with Andygirl’s POV.
Fair enough, gobear. I did not mean to imply that andygirl was in any way wrong to be upset about what happened. I just think that, in her upset, she was casting aspersions that aren’t justified.
Sua
Okay, new theory: in the last two seasons, we’ve had two resurrections: Buffy’s, which worked, and Joyce’s (by way of Dawn) which apparently didn’t, but we never found out how messed up Joyce was. Each time, and especially with Buffy, we get a lot of talk about “what if she came back wrong,” with no real specifics about what “wrong” means exactly.
I’m thinking we’re going to find out.
Willow, now that she’s plugged into some major mojo, uses her newfound powers to bring Tara back to life. But this time she blows it. Tara comes back very, very wrong, and is either the ultimate big bad for the end of this season, or is set up as the big bad for next season. Willow ultimatly has to kill her again, which either begins or concludes her redemption for all the wonderully evil things she’s going to do to Warren next Tuesday. (Oh, Lord, I cannot wait for next Tuesday.)
It’s funny - I was just thinking last week how they’ve never really had a ghost on Buffy. Vampires, werewolves, goddesses, demons…but never a ghost. I reckon Tara’s coming back in spectral form next season. It was the first thing I thought when I saw the end of this episode.
Pipeliner, they had ghosts in I Only Have Eyes For You (Season 2). The tortured ghost of a former student haunts SHS, reenacting the murder/suicide he committed. An exception episode IMHO.
ExceptionAL of course.
I’m so sorry to see Tera go, her and Willow were a sweet couple (but I still miss Oz’s humor). It’s amazing that their relationship lasted as long as it did in the Buffyverse, are they the record holders for longest couple together?
From what I’ve heard it’s still up in the air whether or not Amber Benson will be back next season. She is slow to comment on it, but her mother was quoted as saying “she’s not going anywhere”. I take that as good news!
Good Og how I long for the old days when Spike and Dru were together. None of this nancy boy Spike we have now. The dude is still soulless and evil, no matter how nice his 6 pack is, and yet he’s become nothing more then a pining drunk. I thought Xander made some excellent points in this ep. I don’t remember the exact quote, but basically “we never forgot he was evil” and “if he get’s that chip out, will you trust him around Dawn then?”. I’m glad Spike is going off to Africa to get fixed.
*longs for the Spike who killed the anointed one, 2 slayers and said “I’ll just go find Dru, tie her up, and torture her till she loves me again”.
As for guns in Buffy, I’m remembering way back to Season 1 where Darla went all two gun woo on Buffy and Angel at The Bronze. I’m surprised more bads haven’t gone down this road, seeing how it’s amazingly effective (at least in this ep). They only pull the gun card every once in a great while.
I like the Jonathan redemption angle they’re doing. It was hard to justify him becoming a Troika member after his speech at the Prom. I wonder if they’ll play the “he just fell in with a bad crowd” card and make him a Scooby…
Sorry - I meant to say “…as a recurring character” in reference to the whole ghost thing.
I brought this up in another Buffy thread way back when, and everyone poo-pooed me. “Oh, Buffy can move faster than a speeding bullet” they all said. I guess she can’t at that. I’ve long been surprised that no vampire gang has come up with the oh-so-complex plan of “five of you stand at one end of this alley that the Slayer’s in and five of you stand at the other end, pull out your machine guns and open fire.” Of course that would possibly bring the series to a rather rapid end…
In season 4, Adam fired a machine gun at Buffy. She dodged the bullets and then had some sort of magic forcefield that protected her from them. Since Giles, Willow and Xander had cast a spell on her, I don’t know if that would count as a power she has or not.
Remember in season 3 when Trick organized the Slayerfest '98? I think if he had just gone with something similiar to Otto’s idea, he would have been more successful…
I think that, as alluded by some,
Tara will be back…as Spike’s soul.
That would be a “not.” Buffy, Giles, Willow and Xander were participating in a spell which joined their powers and abilities together and, apparently in the act of joining, allowed Buffy to access powers and abilities far beyond anything that any of them individually could come anywhere near at that time (although Willow by herself may be at about that level). In addition to dodging and blocking bullets, Buffy was also able to transform them into living creatures (!) and dismantle/disable the gun from which they were fired.
But she was able to dodge the bullets before the spell was cast. Adam opens up with the gun, and Buffy dodges behind some sort of control console. Then the spell takes effect and Buffy goes all golden-eyed and starts quoting Deepak Chopra.
Also, this idea: “five of you stand at one end of this alley that the Slayer’s in and five of you stand at the other end, pull out your machine guns and open fire.” probably wouldn’t work, considering that Buffy can leap nearly twenty feet straight up from a standing start. A quick leap to the rooftops, and away she goes.
You’re missing the point. Yeah, a gang of vamps getting a gun might be able to hurt the Slayer, no problem, but the show’s not about killing the Slayer. It’s about real life and how it affects people. That’s why Buffy’s fighting ability varies greatly from episode to episode, and even within the same episode. When it’s necessary for her to lose a fight, she will. When she needs to win, she will do that with equal ease. The Buffy creators (Joss most notably) created this show so that the character’s struggle with supernatural forces mirrors her struggle with the natural ones. The specifics of the fight against the supernatural can sometimes be glossed over in pursuit of a better metaphor. That’s why Giles could always open a book, or Willow could just get online, to find out how to kill whatever it is. The writers used these devices unabashedly to further the main plots.