Ah, but not really. After all, my mother reproduced (and father technically) to make me, there is a strong bond there, but I am still me, not her. Certainly some would argue a piece of them – genetic and possibly spiritual – are within me as well.
Personal opinion is that the act of blood exchange is what kills the person but allows them to become a waiting vessel for the new demon to take up residence. Perhaps the bit of blood they take in from the vampire’s blood is what makes them eternal (body doesn’t get nasty and decompose), while the soul itself dies and goes elsewhere, leaving behind a body with a vacancy sign on it. You’ll notice, people aren’t generally “turned” instantly. Very often, they reach the point of a complete burial before the demon takes up residence and busts them out of their grave.
I caught that too and immediately thought of this discussion. Wow, good call. I love all kinds of old radio and tv shows, but I didn’t remember who portrayed them. Don Ameche wouldn’t have been my first thought, but you’re right. Don Ameche and Frances Langford starred as John and Blanche Bickerson with “make room for” Danny Thomas as Blanche’s brother.
Of course, this reminds me of the episode wherein Cordelia and Wesley first meet Gunn. She makes a comment in the course of that episodes about watching a “film noir film festival on Bravo…”
The boys had said something about going to speak to an informant. Cordelia made a fist and said words to the effect of, “…make with the chin music until he canaries.”
Let’s not assume too much, people. I’ve never heard of a show called “The Bickersons,” and just because Cordy described Wes and Gunn that way doesn’t mean she has either, any more than another person might talk about a “Rube Goldberg contraption” without ever having heard of Rube Goldberg’s comic strip.
We absorb the meanings of phrases and references all the time without knowing their source. Cordy’s “Bickersons” reference can be much the same.
Well…but you need to know something about the expression or it’s origin to use it correctly, which she did (that is, use it correctly). I wouldn’t use the expression “Rube Goldberg contraption” even though I have a vague idea of the meaning (i.e. I think I know what is meant) because I wouldn’t want to use it incorrectly. But I’m not here to bicker semantics either!
My idea in starting this thread was to discuss the nuts and bolts and mechanics of the Buffy and Angel world, more than just the characters and episodes. Sort of like the website kung fu lola just linked us to, although I’ve always found that site to be very poorly organized.
So with that in mind, why do we think we’ve never heard of a Slayer becoming a vampire? Spike had a golden opportunity each time he killed a Slayer, and when we consider most Slayers eventually meet their fate at the hands of a vampire, it seems odd this hasn’t come up before.
You’d think the knowledge and powers a Slayer has would be a boon to vampirekind. Just imagine a vamped Slayer going up against her replacement!
Here’s another one: have y’all noticed that all the past and current Scoobies are only children? Buffy (with an asterisk), Willow, Xander, Cordelia, Oz, Tara…we’ll go on and include Anya with an asterisk as well. Generally speaking siblings don’t play a part in this world, except by their deaths (Gunn and Liam/Angel’s sisters).
I wonder if this is just a coincidence or if the writers had a larger point. I think I read in an interview with Joss that he wished he’d written in a sister for Buffy at the outset, and that’s part of the reason he brought in Dawn.
Melaka Fray, of course, has an older sister and a younger brother, but it remains to be seen if they’ll ultimately be more than just fang fodder in that storyline.
I sort of assumed that the Powers That Be would not allow for a Slayer to become a vampire, even thought there’s absolutely no canonical support for such an assumption.
Question regarding Drucilla: in tonight’s FX ep Spike did a ritual to “cure” her. I didn’t catch in previous eps what it was she was being cured of. When she and Spike showed up in Sunnydale, she was weakened after their encounter with the mob in Prague but I thought it was from lack of feeding. What was the actual malady?
I don’t think Dru’s malady was ever specified. She may have just been weak. She certainly looked rather consumptive, except for the bruising.
Onto another topic, I noticed when reading some transcripts of the early episodes of Angel that the police officer’s name is Kate Lockley, isn’t that the family name given to Robin Hood? Or was it Robin of Locklsey?
Hey look, FX is up to where I started watching the show! And, may I just say, that is THE worst werewolf costume EVER.
Question about Buffy’s cross. It changes size and style throughout the series. Presumably after Angel turns she’s probably not going to want to wear the cross he gave her any longer, but we see a lot of different crosses before then. I’d have expected her to wear Angel’s exclusively at least after they became an item but she doesn’t. Do we know if there was some canonical reason for the changing cross, or was it just the costume department?
Oh, and I still seem to have missed where Buffy & co. were specifically told about Angel’s curse. Last week there was an episode where one of the gang said sort of throwaway “he’s good now. Gypsy curse, long story” or something. When did they learn of it?
No, that was on tonight as well, and it was then that the full ramifications of the curse were explained. Previous to that Buffy and co. knew there was a curse, just not the “moment of perfect happiness=evil evil evil” part.
I agree, Oz’s werewolf costume was just awful. And I submit that you can’t have a realistic werewolf costume if you want him to look more wolf-like than human. Better to make it all CGI, which is probably affordable even for a show like Buffy; after all, it can’t be any more expensive than Species 8472 was on Voyager. And it’s reasonable to assume Buffy could afford anything Voyager could.
New topic. Vampires can enter Angel’s home without being invited. We know this at the very least because last year Darla was sneaking into his hotel room to give him good dreams.
On the other hand, we also know that a vampire’s need to get permission to enter a home is tied to the soul of the home’s dweller. Thus, Angel couldn’t get into Kate’s father’s apartment until the old man died and his soul departed.
I think y’all can see where I’m going with this: Angel has a soul, just like Kate’s father, just like you and I (well, you anyway). Vampires should require admission to get into his room.
And before any of you respond “it’s a hotel room, not a home,” remember that Angel needed Fred’s permission to enter her room in the very same hotel. So that’s not an issue.
Someone please talk us out of this apparent discrepancy.
Angel is a demon with a soul. Sometimes the demon requirements predominate. Sometimes the soul requirements. The “needs permission to enter” provision doesn’t apply to demons, Angel’s a demon, therefore the provision doesn’t apply to Angel.
Oh, and wasn’t Darla human when she was sneaking around Angel’s bedroom?
What I think is the more interesting question is, since Fred lives in the hotel, why vampires can enter the building at all.
Otto: A hotel is a place of business, so the assumption is that anyone is welcome to enter the lobby, if no where else. Plus, it’s the headquarters for Angel Investigations, so again, anyone can enter. All they need is a flier saying “Come down to Angel Investigations if you need help,” and I think that would be a viable invitation. Angel, when he was evil, got into the highschool because of the school’s motto: “Welcome all who seek knowledge.”
Otto, hotels are public buildings. Angel said something no-problem access when he and Gunn were looking for Darla last season.
Same problem in the episode Passion:
What I want to know is how did Angelus get into Giles’ home to set up the scene with Jenny’s dead body? Had Angel been there before and everybody just forgot to do the spell on his place too?
There have been a lot of good posts in this thread about the “spiritual” part of turning, but how about the mechanics of becoming a vamp? I missed a lot of Season 1+2 (bless you, FX!) so I might not have seen an explanation.
In various vampire folklore, you become a vamp either through drinking a vamp’s blood, being bled over a series of nights, or by having a certain amount of blood taken. Are any of these the mechanism in the Buffyverse?
How long does it take a vamp to rise? It seems like usually it must take a few days at least, or there wouldn’t be all those vampires clawing their way out of fresh graves. At least a few times, though (i.e. Gunn’s sister), the transformation seems almost instantaneous.
And to close, what the hell is the plural of “mythos”? I don’t know the rules for Greek, and tried mythoses, mythi, mythus, and a few others before giving up and using “folklore”.
They’ve always left details out. Largely, I think, to give them room to maneuver in later episodes. The only way I can recall someone turning grr is by exchanging blood with a vamp. How long does it take? Who knows? It seems to vary a lot. Maybe it’s a matter of the quantity of blood, or just how soon a demon can get around to incorporating the body.
Other more-or-less unexplained things: Beheading apparently kills vamps, but they rarely use it. So does fire, but it doesn’t come up much. Holy water would seem useful, but doesn’t seem stocked up on. Garlic has been in the background of a couple episodes, but I’ve never seen exactly what it does in the Buffyverse.
In short, Buffy can do whatever Joss says she can. In a way, it’s a good thing. Focusing on the technical side can make the show Star Trekky. That’s a bad thing, in my book.
Vamps sire new vamps by sucking a victim’s blood and forcing the victim to suck the sire’s in return. “It’s a big suckfest”, as Buffy once characterized it to Riley. You can see in an Angel episode (same universe) where Dru forces Darla to drink from a scratch on her breast. I think you also see in the flashback of Angelus’s vamping.
There is no consistent time frame, unfortunatly. Most seem to rise the night after they are vamped, but that forces us to assume that there is a very fast funeral service in Sunnydale. Three vamps I can think of have risen in the morgue/hospital, and several were buried in the ground before rising.
I had thought trading blood with a vamp was the “proper” was of being turned, but in the episode with Dracula, it seemed to imply a series of exchanges were needed.
Justin’s right, though, no need to go looking for inconsistencies. Joss and the other writers have put two great (hopefully soon three great) shows on the air, and I’m certainly not going to knock them. It’s their universe, they can make the rules.
On using beheading as a way of offing vamps, Buffy did make nice use of a car door on this week’s episode. It would be nice to see a wider variety of slayage like that, rather than the usual stake to the heart.
That’s not a problem. We’ve been using the term “hotel,” but remember, Angel and crew have set up shop in a residential hotel. so Fred’s room is her home, not a public rental.
The thing about Angelus getting into Giles’s apartment might be a real problem, but it’s been five years since I’ve seen that episode and so can’t address it.
cmburns: The Dracula didn’t imply a series of exchanges were required. When Dracula encouraged Buffy to taste him, she was reluctant until he said “you must be near death” for it to turn her. So that’s the condition.
