I think that was simply one of Angelus’ taunts. Vampires had been wandering in and out of that school for years. The highschool probably just falls under the “public building” rule.
Sua
Damn, Lok got to it first. Let me just add that they were de-inviting Angel from Cordelia’s car (she had to trade cars with her grandmother until the spell was done), Willow’s room (“Ira Rosenbergs only daughter nailing crucifixes to her wall”) and Buffy’s place (“Sorry Angel, your invitation just got revoked” or something like that). Giles’s place was the last one on the list, and he had the stuff to de-invite Angel with him when he discovered Jenny.
And this bugged me no end. Never anywhere before this has a car (in which Cordelia presumably didn’t live) required an invitation to enter. A car is not a home (unless of course someone’s living in their car, which, again, Cordelia wasn’t) and disinviting Angel from Cordelia’s car was a huge waste of time. I realize it was supposed to be a cute moment, but it was so stupid that I didn’t find it cute at all.
[quote]
Willow’s room (“Ira Rosenbergs only daughter nailing crucifixes to her wall”) and Buffy’s place (“Sorry Angel, your invitation just got revoked” or something like that).{/quote]
“Sorry Angel, changed the locks.”
Actually, I thought that they didn’t need to really de-invite Angel from Cordy’s car. They did the spell just to calm her down. Nobody else seemed terribly panicked about her car. In hindsight, I think they should have done Giles’s place first.
I think the scoobies were assuming that Angelus wsn’t aware of the budding relationship between Giles and Jenny. I think the decision to do Buffy’s house first was a reasonable one, as they knew Angelus was threatening Buffy’s mom. I don’t think Angelus had threatened Giles or Jenny by that time.
I am quite in agreement that doing the car was a waste of time/
Remember, Angel didn’t kill Jenny at Giles’ house. He killed her at the school and took her body to Giles’ place. Whether they’d done Giles’ house first or last or never wouldn’t have kept Jenny alive, it just would have stopped Angel from making such an artistic presentation of her.
Just watched the slaughter of Kendra and I have a question. Why the hell don’t all the Scoobys carry crosses at all times, and lots of them? Buffy seems to be the only one who carries one (or more correctly wears one). This is a pretty simple device to stop vampires in their tracks and no one bothers to keep one stashed in their back pocket? Let’s see, how would the Buffyverse be different if the Scoobies carried crosses? For starters, Jenny would still be alive, as she could have held Angel off or driven him away, instead of doing the somewhat less effective running away screaming. Kendra would be alive, as Drusilla wouldn’t have been able to get close enough to slash her throat. Which means that Faith wouldn’t have been called and all the mayhem she caused wouldn’t have happened. All for the lack of a couple of popsicle sticks glued together at right angles.
What kills me about this is that all of them used crosses at one time or another exactly as suggested above. Xander, Willow and Cordelia held off Angel when Buffy was sick. Jenny backed him off Willow right after he turned. It’s just stupid that they’d think to carry crosses sometimes and not others. Either really sloppy writing or a way too convenient plot oversight.
About the crosses, there is this thing about Willow being born Jewish and becoming pagan. Crosses have to be worn with sincerity. Also, the vampire has to believe in the cross. If he were say, Muslim, or one who otherwise does not believe in any holy symbol, then the cross-wearer is out of luck.
Also it seems more like a person being affraid of a burning hot poker, not a mystical dread they are forced to obey. If a vampir really wants to get through the cross they’ll grab it, burn and toss it. This will give their victim time to do something else effective. So a cross will buy you time but it isn’t a perfect weapon. That and it’s just too damned easy to solve problems with it. I also think you need something better than two popsicle sticks.
Sorry, but is this general vampire lore, WAG, or has Joss Whedon specifically stated that this is how crosses work in the Buffyverse? Willow was still nailing crucifixes to the walls when they were de-inviting Angel, for example, and I’m pretty certain she’s used them to scare off vamps before.
I think the “hot poker” analogy is the best one offered so far, although I also want to note that if you surprise a vampire with a cross, it seems to work much better. Perhaps if they have time to mentally steel themselves, they can ignore the repulsion effects of a cross (if not the flesh-burning portion).
For a new topic on the buffy website Willow is referred to as the Witch and Tara the Sorceress. Now is this division just to give them different labels or does it mean something? Dictionary wise it doesn’t seem to make much of a difference. Any thoughts on the distinction for the buffy-verse?
Wasn’t the cross originally a Pagan symbol, so when Willow converted to Pagan couldn’t she justify it’s use this way?
Therefore still believing in the symbol
Willow and Jenny have both used crosses, as I noted when I raised the question. Joss has not established that either the wielder or the vampire has to have any particular religious belief for it to work (this is not Fright Night, people!). The hot poker analogy is a good one, but the video evidence seems to be that there is a general repulsion effect to crosses. For example, when Angel was faced with three crosses wielded by the Scoobies to keep him off Buffy, had he truly been able to ignore them, grab them, feel the burn and go on, I think he would have. The cross isn’t a real effective deterrent if its only power is to burn and not repel.
Oh, and I just noticed (I’m a little slow sometimes) that someone in addressing a previous question of mine said that Angel was Darla’s sire. It’s the other way around. Darla sired Angel.
We have seen vampires knock crosses out of people’s hands, and I believe the Master grasped a cross once, IIRC. It seems to burn them a little, and the vampires don’t care for them.
And yes, when I was talking about doing Giles’s house first, I meant that Jenny couldn’t be artistically placed there. She was dead either way. Still, it was a pretty rough way of finding her body.
Maybe crosses don’t work on faith but on intensity of emotion. So when trying to defend Buffy the raw need for them to repel Angel intensified the power of the cross. Where as just holding it up in reflexive fear doesn’t generate as much repulsion. Sort of a confidence thing.
Also three hot pokers can really mess you up. If Angel grabbed for one two would be on his back faster than he could do anything else. I’m willing to bet enough contact with a functional cross can kill a vampire. Now that would be an interesting torture for a vampire, nail 'em to a large cross. I’m sure I’ve seen that in some horror film or another, and I doubt Whendon wanrs to wander that close to total blasphemy. Still I’d like to see Cordy and Angel’s other friends frantically pulling him down from a cross he’s been nailed to.
Crosses and holy water work well. Has anyone seen any evidence that holy symbols from religions other than Christianity work to ward off vamps? If the repulsion/burning effect is caused by any symbol of a “good” religion, the effectiveness of a cross shouldn’t depend on whether Willow (or any other bearer)is a practicing Jew, pagan, or even an atheist.
Any episodes where a Cross of David, say, repelled a vamp? It would seem odd if only the symbols of one religion were effective, especially since the lore says that vampires predate Christianity. (Granted, in an emergency situation, you probably couldn’t beat a Christian cross for ease of assembly)
**The Tim **, Buffy’s cross burned Angel’s chest when they were kissing, so it can’t be solely dependent on a strong emotional desire to repel. You might be right that it is an intensifier.
Only crosses have been used in Buffy and Angel. Apparently vamps like to claim they were at the crucifixion (Spike made some snide remarks about this when he first appeared). This would seem to imply that the Christian God has some sort of special antagonism towards vampires.
Remember, crosses aren’t a Christian invention. The Romans had been nailing people to them for centuries before Jesus showed up, and there are crosses in pre-Roman Celtic art. While this has never been brought up by Joss, I think the cross is an ancient mystical symbol that was later adopted by Christians because it’s effects on vampires could be seen as tangible evidence of God’s power and good will. I’m sure there are any number of other mystical symbols that harm or keep vampires at bay, but who needs 'em when you’ve got a couple popsicle sticks and some Elmer’s?
Thanks, that makes sense.
Just thought of this. The “stubby” red cross that is the symbol of the organization of the same name was created by reversing the colors of the Swiss flag. I would assume the stubby white cross was chosen by the Swiss as a symbol of Christianity. Does that mean a blood bag from the Red Cross would be a little tricky for Angel to handle? 
Good question about the blood bags.
I read an interview with Buffy’s costume designer a couple of years ago, and she said she was consciously dropping cross pendants from Buffy’s wardrobe, to reflect the character’s greater self-confidence. She no longer needed crosses to protect herself, in other words.
My favorite cross-related moment came on Angel last season. It was right after Darla had been brought back as a human. She and Angel had a big confrontation about Angel following the good, “Godly” path.
Darla produced a cross and pressed it into Angel’s chest. It burned him and he exclaimed in pain.
“See?” she told him (I’m paraphrasing). “God doesn’t want you!”
For the kind of classical, Gothic horror these two shows are based around, you pretty much have to start with the presumption that Christianity, specifically Catholic Christianity, is true and correct. So there’s a Heaven and Hell, there are demons, ghosts and angels, and crosses and holy water hurt vampires.
That’s enough for me. If Joss ever explains why a Star of David or a Muslim crescent will or won’t affect vampires, that’ll be cool and interesting.
But if he doesn’t, that’s cool too.
So I just watched the episode (third season opener I believe) with Buffy in L.A. as “Anne.” Am I correct in thining that “new Anne” is the same Anne that we saw on “Angel” last season running the runaway shelter? Does anyone believe that this flake in the course of two years could go from waitressing to running an agency with a multi-million dollar budget?
Anyways, I’m pretty upset that I won’t get to see tomorrow’s FX episodes. I have to work and my choices are taping the FX episodes or taping the new episodes. Thank you, TCI which became something else which is now Charter, for having digital equipment so archaic that I can’t tape on multiple channels. I know I’ve seen both of them before, but still…zombies! And the first appearance of Faith.
Did we ever learn what the deal was with Principal Snyder? We see him a few times covering up supernatural events, he knew the school was on the Hellmouth and he reported to the Mayor. Did we ever get into specifics, before he was eaten?
One of my local affiliates is running Buffy on weekends but wickedly out of order. Last night it showed “Band Candy.” During one of the scenes where Willow was researching, the phrase “WICCA-4” was superimposed on the screen. What’s up with that? Anyone else ever seen anything like that?